“You have to attend college to get a good job.”
That was a phrase that my father continually beat into my head harder than Lars Ulrich could pound on his bass drum (in case there is a generation gap, Lars is the drummer from the rock band Metallica).
Even though on average college graduates do earn more in the long-run and online colleges are bringing down costs, the current job market is saturated with sustainable careers that don’t necessarily require a degree.
Taking a closer look, it seems a major shift in employer priorities is occurring in certain fields, such as manufacturing and information technology (IT), where soft skills and on-the-job training are deemed more beneficial than a formal educational background.
Individuals bringing these resources to the table are now in high demand, especially since many companies now offer assistantship programs or even paid training for high-achieving candidates.
In this day and age, it just might be more about the right skills than the right schooling.
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25 Highest Paying Jobs Without A College Degree
- Margin Department Supervisor
- Air Traffic Controller
- Automobile Service Station Manager
- Real Estate Broker
- Landscape Architect
- Lead Carpenter
- Director of Security
- Elevator Mechanic
- Cable Supervisor
- Flight Services Manager
- Freelance Photographer
- Personal Trainer
- Funeral Director
- Commercial Pilot
- Truck Driver
- Nuclear Power Reactor Operator
- Emergency Medical Technician
- Railroad Jobs
- Medical Coder
- Information Technology Technician
- Criminal Investigator
- Brick Mason
- Postal Service Worker
- Pharmacy Technician
If you have decided to not attend a four-year college right out of high school, or are looking for a fresh start at a new career path, 25 of the highest paying careers with virtually no degree are featured below.
Looking for a fun job that pays well? Scared that the cause of unemployment may be growing? Sign up for free and see who’s hiring in 2023 at www.FlexJobs.com.
Disclaimer: While there are definitely some good paying trade jobs on this list, I still think having a college degree is worth it. Yes, tuition is high and will continue to rise, but the experience, connections, and mindset that college offers are invaluable. Now on to the jobs…
1. Margin Department Supervisor
Average Salary: $74,799
Prior Education: A finance or accounting degree is not required, but knowledge of all basic processes is needed.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate to high training and/or shadowing.
Job Description: A Margin Department Supervisor oversees a company’s credit department, which manages customer credit accounts and approves or denies credit to customers.
As would be expected, approving or denying credit sometimes involves unhappy customers, so you’ll need strong communication and negotiation skills for this role.
Since the scope of the job requires mathematical calculations as well as debt analysis and recognition of accounting principles, make sure you are confident with these basic processes. Some companies may increase pay if you have a degree under your belt.
You’ll also primarily be in charge of ensuring all department employees adhere to federal policies and regulations.
2. Air Traffic Controller (ATC)
Average Salary: $124,540
Prior Education: A college degree is not required, but the nature of the field is very competitive where experience is highly valued. A combination of progressive work experience and formal education is generally preferred.
On-the-Job Training: Rigorous training and testing is required.
Job Description: An Air Traffic Controller is required to pass rigorous testing by the FAA, which includes health checks, as well as mental stability tests. You must initiate the testing process before age 31.
Being an Air Traffic Controller has been voted the most stressful job in the United States for many years because of what the job entails on a daily basis. Air traffic controllers also often work night shifts, weekends, and even holidays.
A typical work day may include monitoring and directing in-air traffic, including routine take off/landing. Sometimes in-air emergencies must be handled, hence the high stress associated with the position.
Strong organizational and problem-solving abilities along with excellent communication skills are highly valued in this role. It does help to know someone already in the business to land a job in this field.
3. Automobile Service Station Manager
Average Salary: $45,204
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. Some employers may prefer a Bachelor’s degree in management or similar field and/or several years of experience in automotive service management.
On-the-Job Training: Most can obtain this type of position by working one’s way up the ladder through on-the-job experience. Obtaining certification may also be required.
Job Description: Essentially, the role of the Service Station Manager is to run the day-to-day operations of a gas station.
The scope of the work includes setting the gas prices for the day, scheduling and training the rest of the employees who work at the station, ordering new merchandise to keep the shelves stocked, ensuring service station safety, as well as being the direct manager for the other employees.
Some skills that would be helpful in obtaining this job would be good personal skills as well as some managerial and accounting experience.
4. Real Estate Broker
Average Salary: $56,730
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. However, a college degree in finance or related field may prove beneficial.
On-the-Job Training: Even though you must take a couple of classes to obtain your certification, these courses are much less of an expense compared to financing a college degree. Licensure requirements typically vary from state to state.
Job Description: To become a real estate broker you will still need to take a couple of classes to become certified. But still, these courses are still much less of an expense to you compared to financing a college degree.
You will be trying to sell houses as well as filing the paperwork for the transactions. In addition, you will help customers with their loan agreements.
However, if you are considering this career, you should be very friendly and have flexible hours since you will most likely be working on your customers’ schedules.
You typically are self-employed setting your own hours and working on a commission basis. Good negotiation skills along with market research experience will prove helpful in this role.
5. Landscape Architect
Average Salary: $65,760
Prior Education: Typically a minimum of a Bachelor’s degree in Landscape Architecture is preferred. An internship experience is highly encouraged. This job may require you to take some classes at a community college on horticulture as well as landscape design, but these types of courses are not required.
On-the-Job Training: With this career, you will have the option of whether you would like to be becoming certified or not. However, if you are certified, you will have access to larger contracts and a wider scope of work. Most states do mandate licensure, though, and the requirements vary from state to state.
Job Description: If you do not mind getting a little dirty and working hard for a living, then this might be a good career for you. Typical job duties include designing functional yet attractive outdoor spaces and parks for a variety of clients.
Landscape architects spend a large portion of their time creating blueprints and preparing cost analysis reports. You would also analyze environmental conditions for projects and even participate in restoration initiatives.
Make sure you have a good eye for design and a strong work ethic to consider this career. Understanding GIS technologies and project management is a must.
Here’s a how-to guide for starting your own lawn company and making some serious money (in turn being able to and saving some serious money, too!).
6. Lead Carpenter
Average Salary: $51,150
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. Most Lead Carpenters begin their careers as skilled apprentices.
This job requires a high amount of experience in the field either through attending a trade school to master technical skills or by being an apprentice to a lead carpenter.
On-the-Job Training: By going to trade school you will actually have to obtain some type of certification, possibly making you more marketable in the field.
Often training includes learning how to expertly handle a variety of power tools, such as power drills or saws.
Job Description: Serving as an apprentice would most likely land you in a job replacing your teacher. Either way, you can be very successful in this type of career if you enjoy working with your hands.
Although highly dependent on the type of industry, job duties may include analyzing construction plans, creating project timelines, and managing and overseeing team production activities.
Carpenters often work in both indoor and outdoor settings and may need to eventually join a union.
7. Director of Security
Average Salary: $78,608
Prior Education: Typically a minimum of a Bachelor’s degree in Computer Science or related field is preferred along with years of experience in related positions.
In reality, this job will involve starting off in an entry level security position before working your way through the ranks to become the Director of Security.
On-the-Job Training: You might also be required to pass a security guard training program , but this will most likely be paid in full by the employer so the actual educational cost to you would be zero.
Depending on the company you will work for, you might also be required to pass a background check as well as some minor health inspections.
Job Description: A typical work day would include reviewing and implementing security department policies along with ensuring relevant local, state, and federal laws and regulations are adhered to. This role may also involve actively participating in training programs with the security staff.
Some good skills to have for this type of job would be some above average physical characteristics, as well as integrity to always choose what is right.
This position often involves being on-call for any emergencies after-hours, so make sure you can fulfill this requirement.
You can also try going the Police Officer route. If you decide to pursue this career, make sure you study with the Police Exam Guide .
8. Elevator Mechanic
Average Salary: $77,806
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent.
Just like the Lead Carpenter job, this job will most likely be acquired through a trade school degree, assistantship, or lots of years of experience. Being an elevator mechanic does have a couple more stipulations, though.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate to high training; may need to attend trade school to contract with large corporations.
Job Description: Lots of major corporations will require you to have a license and work for an insured company, which in this case would then force you to go the trade school route so that you could work on these large corporate jobs.
A typical work day would include repairing elevators and fulfilling routine preventative maintenance when needed. Installing and repairing control systems or adjusting and inspecting safety controls are other common work tasks.
Elevator mechanics should be able to identify and troubleshoot issues quickly and efficiently, and having a working knowledge of elevator mechanics is needed. Most of this industry is unionized, so make sure you are willing to join a union before entering this line of work.
9. Cable Supervisor
Average Salary: $51,112
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. However, technical school education or an internship/assistantship may prove beneficial.
On-the-Job Training: A good way to acquire this type of a position is to either apply for the job with some type of managing/scheduling background or to apply for an entry-level position and work your way up by knowing the business.
Job Description: This career would be in a managerial-type setting. You would be responsible for overseeing the maintenance as well as installation workers setting up cable boxes and internet connections.
Typical work duties would also include interpreting cable specifications, troubleshooting issues with cable equipment, and also hiring and training any new cable technicians.
You would be responsible for the scheduling aspect as well as holding the workers accountable to be where they need to be.
10. Flight Service Manager
Average Salary: $64,042
Prior Education: Typically a minimum of a Bachelor’s degree in aviation management or related field is preferred. Completing an internship program is highly suggested.
On-the-Job Training: This career would most likely be obtained through lots of on-the-job experience along with obtaining certification if required.
Job Description: You would be responsible for helping schedule flight crews as well as taking care of customer complaints and filing any necessary paperwork.
This job would require great personal skills as well as lots of patience with unhappy customers. Making sure all passengers have the best onboard experience possible is of top priority for Flight Services Managers.
Airlines can be a stressful arena to work in, so if you are considering this line of work make sure you can keep your cool in the toughest of situations.
11. Freelance Photographer
Average Salary: $36,630
Prior Education: No educational experience required.
On-the-Job Training: This career typically involves both self-education and hands-on training through practice. Natural talent and creativity are highly valued in this field.
Job Description: Being a Freelance Photographer takes dedication to one’s tasks, as well as a great eye for artistic detail. This type of career may also require traveling long distances to be able to acquire the right “shot” for the right story.
In a sense, being a Freelance Photographer can take many forms, such as snapping pictures of nature for magazines, or taking pictures of stories for newspapers, or even being a paparazzi-type photographer and searching for the next big celebrity scandal.
To really make a sustainable living in this field, it may prove helpful to complete some basic business management courses, or to attend training sessions on editing or even lighting techniques.
It’s best that Freelance Photographers have good personal skills and can identify and fulfill client needs and/or requests. If you become a really good photographer, you could even sell your photos on Shutterstock to make some extra cash.
12. Personal Trainer
Average Salary: $38,222
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent.
This career will most likely require that you are qualified to teach proper physical fitness techniques to clients. Many Personal Trainers have strong backgrounds in nutrition, exercise science, or other related fields.
This certificate is not very difficult to obtain; however, it is relatively cheaper compared to any other type of trade school mentioned above.
On-the-Job Training: Continual through updating or expanding one’s professional certifications.
Job Description: To be successful in this line of work you will most likely want to be a very physically active person yourself, as well as have a passion for this line of work.
A typical work day would include meeting one-on-one with clients to assess their physical fitness needs with the intent of designing an individualized training program.
Personal Trainers also motivate and encourage their clients to reach and even surpass their fitness goals. As a result, good personal and communication skills are a must.
Most Personal Trainers work at gyms, private workout facilities, or provide at-home or virtual coaching services. Some decide to work both inside and outside the home to help facilitate a higher income.
Also, you can try getting your Yoga certification .
13. Funeral Director
Average Salary: $56,850
Prior Education: Educational requirements range from a high school diploma or equivalent to an Associate’s or Bachelor’s degree in Funeral Service Education or related field. Internships are also encouraged.
On-the-Job Training: Licensure is required in the U.S. before taking on a Funeral Director position, and some states may require a certain level of education or the completion of an apprenticeship.
Job Description: You do need some training to become a Funeral Director and possibly certification, but you can eventually make as much as $80,000 a year.
A typical work day would include helping families organize funeral details and complete any corresponding paperwork, such as a death certificate.
Offering counseling to grieving family members and helping to prepare the deceased body for the funeral service are other common duties.
It is important that you be able to handle the macabre, and you do need to have tact and a warm personality since you are dealing with people in difficult situations. Make sure you can accommodate a flexible schedule since visitations and funerals are often on weekdays and weekends.
14. Commercial Pilot
Average Salary: $78,740
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent, but most airlines now require a Bachelor’s degree as a prerequisite for employment.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate to high training is involved. Often the first step is to get your private pilot’s license. You’ll get your flight hours up and be more comfortable in the cockpit.
Job Description: Commercial Pilots fly planes for very specific reasons, such as for rescue operations, aerial photography, aerial tours, or charter flights.
Pilots generally evaluate overall conditions of aircraft, communicate with air traffic control, and monitor engines and fuel consumption, among other routine tasks. Being a team player with strong communication and observational skills is also a plus.
You’ll be spending a considerable amount of time away from home, so make sure you aren’t too much of a homebody. Fatigue and jet lag may also be experienced often.
Excellent observational and communication skills prove quite beneficial in this field of work. You can easily make more than $50,000 if you get on as a commercial pilot at the right airline.
15. Truck Driving
Average Salary: $53,199
Prior Education: Typically a Commercial Drivers License (CDL) and/or high school diploma or equivalent is preferred.
On-the-Job Training: Drivers must complete several weeks of on-the-job training.
Job Description: After completing six to eight weeks of training and obtaining your commercial driver’s license, you can make $45,000. Work your way up to becoming a trainer, and you can clear more than $70,000 a year.
Maintaining a clean driving record is crucial. Truck Drivers must adhere to all traffic laws, ensure cargo is secure for transport, and keep all trucks and equipment in good working condition.
Hand-eye coordination, visual stamina, and mental focus are important qualities to have for this type of position.
To become a Truck Driver you need a Commercial Drivers License or CDL. I recommend using both a CDL Practice Test and CDL Test Answers to help you study up so you can pass.
16. Nuclear Power Reactor Operator
Average Salary: $72,384
Prior Education: A degree in a field like engineering is required by some nuclear power plants, but you do not need a college degree to land a lower level operator job. In some cases, all you need to do in some cases is to simply pass the certification test.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate to high training is required along with possible certification.
Job Description: Nuclear power reactor operators manage nuclear reactors, monitoring them and making adjustments as necessary to ensure the safety of the nuclear power production process.
They also have to perform routine maintenance on the reactors and shutdown on very specific systems. Because the job is quite risky and requires very careful attention to detail, it pays quite well.
It also helps to become efficient in the required computer technologies involved in nuclear power plants. Make sure you can handle shift work and long hours.
17. Fire Fighting
Average Salary: $49,080.
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. Any prior training in emergency medical services is a plus.
On-the-Job Training: Completing a physically demanding training program is mandatory along with other certifications.
Job Description: The starting salary for a Firefighter is often just a little more than $30,000, but you can make more than $50,000 a year depending on where you work and whether you reach a supervisory position.
Firefighters must know how to use standard field equipment, such as hoses and ladders, become proficient at providing medical attention to injured victims, and properly handle coming in contact with hazardous materials or wildfires.
Depending on which state you work in, you may need to complete specific training programs, such as high-rise building rescues.
Being a firefighter is a very strenuous and dangerous occupation, and you often must work long shifts and over 40 hours per week. To help you get physically ready for firefighting duty, I recommend you check out Pass the Beep Test, a guide to help you prepare your body for firefighting.
18. Emergency Medical Technician (EMT)
Average Salary: $33,380
Prior Education: Typically a high school diploma or equivalent and cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) certification is required. Completing a postsecondary educational program is common.
On-the-Job Training: Generally there is little to no on-the-job training, but completing levels of certification are more than likely required for most states.
Job Description: If you are about to take your EMT classes to become an EMT, you will be happy to learn that the job outlooks in this field are very promising. However, chances of having a good job in the EMS are given to those who have more EMT certifications (like paramedics).
EMTs are first responders in a medical emergency, assessing victims’ conditions and possibly transporting them to the hospital by ambulance. Often people’s lives are on the line when EMTs arrive on the scene.
The hourly wages can vary from $12.08 (10% of the workforce earns less than this) to $24.77 (10% earn more than this bracket). According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics , as of 2023 the median hourly wages of EMTs was at $17.76 per hour.
19. Railroad Jobs
Average Salary: $59,780
Prior Education: Typically a high school diploma or equivalent is required.
On-the-Job Training: Several months of moderate-level training is standard. Obtaining certifications may also be required.
Job Description: Do you like trains? Do you enjoy traveling? If so, a railroad job might be just for you.
A variety of positions are available, ranging from engineers and conductors to switch operators and management positions. Railroad jobs give you a chance to see new parts of the country while getting paid very well in the process.
Since trains operate every day of the week, expect to work nights, weekends, and holidays in all kinds of weather conditions.
Hand-eye coordination, visual acuity, and communication skills are valuable assets in this industry. If you’re looking at getting a railroad job, here’s a comprehensive guide that shares how to get a job in the railroad industry.
20. Medical Coder
Average Salary: $45,035
Prior Education: Typically a high school diploma or equivalent is required, while an Associate’s Degree is sometimes preferred.
On-the-Job Training: There is little to no on-the-job-training since specific training programs are generally completed as a prerequisite for employment. Completing certifications may also be required.
Job Description: The healthcare industry is currently booming, and you can expect it to continue to rise with the Baby Boomer generation getting older. There aren’t enough doctors and nurses available.
Behind all of the doctors is a team of medical coders typing up detailed reports on what procedures you had done and billing you or your insurance company the amount owed.
According to The American Academy of Professional Coders (AAPC)’s 2022 salary survey , on average medical coders without certification bring home approximately $47,200 per year. However, becoming certified as a Certified Professional Coder (CPC) is highly sought after to seek higher pay.
21. Information Technology (IT) Technician
Average Salary: $41,305
Prior Education: Associate’s degree, Bachelor’s degree, or certificate program in computer science or related field is typically preferred. A degree is usually not required to land an entry-level position.
On-the-Job Training: Little to no on-the-job training expected since some employers require that candidates complete some level of formal training as a prerequisite for employment.
Job Description: There are a number of career paths within information technology that do not require a college degree.
Starting out you’ll probably conduct support calls on a helpdesk and only make $11-13 per hour. As your skills and experience progress and you get more experience you can easily make $50,000 to $70,000 per year as you get into systems administration and network engineering.
Typically IT technicians diagnose and repair computer malfunctions and install and maintain network systems. Get started on your IT career path by getting some online computer training and certification.
22. Criminal Investigator
Average Salary: $58,582
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent.
Several years of prior experience in law enforcement is encouraged. Some employers do require a minimum of an Associate’s degree in Criminal Justice or related field.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate on-the-job training is expected. Most states do require standard licensure for criminal investigators, along with a license to carry an armed weapon.
Training typically involves learning how to properly gather information and conduct remote surveillance, among other routine tasks. Reconstructing accident scenes is also a field-specific skill learned.
Job Description: Criminal investigators are the individuals tasked with interviewing and collecting evidence for specific cases.
Depending on the case at hand, you may be performing background checks, verifying facts and statements, conducting surveillance, searching online records, or gathering information on persons of interest.
You may even need to testify in court or make a physical arrest. This job is fast-paced and often involves working odd hours, weekends, and holidays.
Important skills to have include resourcefulness, inquisitiveness, and integrity. Being able to stay cool, calm, and collected during criminal investigations is integral to performing well in this role.
23. Brick Mason
Average Salary: $42,900
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. Many masons also complete extensive apprenticeship programs or specific coursework before employment.
Any previous experience as a construction laborer is acceptable.
On-the-Job Training: Learning the trade is often accomplished through completing apprenticeships and/or on-the-job training shadowing experienced masons.
In these apprenticeship programs, promising candidates learn standard masonry practices, such as construction basics, measurement calculations, and safety procedures.
Job Description: Generally a brick mason uses bricks to construct walls, fences, and other structures.
A typical work day would include reading blueprints, gathering required materials, cleaning surfaces with power tools, and lifting heavy materials for proper alignment.
Brick masons often work long hours in a fast-paced and strenuous environment where becoming injured on the job is common. Protective gear, such as safety glasses, should be worn at all times.
Construction deadlines must be met, so brick masons often work indoors and outdoors in all kinds of weather. Important skills to have for this role include hand-eye coordination, physical strength, and attention to detail.
24. Postal Service Worker
Average Salary: $57,260
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. An excellent driving record is a must along with a clean track record.
On-the-Job Training: There is some short-term on-the-job training involved, including passing a written exam, road test, and other standard background checks.
Job Description: Postal service workers generally collect, sort, process, and distribute mail in a timely manner. It’s their responsibility to make sure mail is delivered seamlessly.
They also sell common postal products, such as stamps, and obtain any customer signatures for certified mail.
Important skills to have for this role include a strong focus on customer service and attention to detail.
25. Pharmacy Technician
Average Salary: $31,750
Prior Education: High school diploma or equivalent. Complete a postsecondary program in pharmacy technology before employment is acceptable.
On-the-Job Training: Moderate on-the-job training is required, which typically involves passing an exam or specialized program.
You may also need to learn how to operate automated dispensing equipment, and some states may require certification.
Job Description: Pharmacy technicians are responsible for correctly filling, packaging, and labeling customers’ or health professionals’ prescriptions.
You would also be involved in organizing inventory, processing insurance claims, and accurately entering patient information into a computer database.
Having excellent organizational, listening, and customer-service skills is highly valued for this role.
Pharmacy technicians may be required to work nights and some weekends. Make sure you are physically fit enough to spend most of the day on your feet fulfilling orders.
Is Attending College Overrated?
There’s one thing I know for sure – college is extremely expensive! As the College Board highlights in a recent survey outlining changes in college tuition between 2012-2013 and 2022-2023, tuition is on a steady upward climb that shows no signs of letting up.
In 2023, public four-year in-state tuition is $10,950 for full-time students. This was a 1.8% increase from the previous college year.
There are a vast amount of careers that you can obtain without an actual college degree, but most require either a trade school certification or just time on the job and working your way up through the ranks.
“Formal education will make you a living. Self education will make you a fortune.” – Jim Rohn
Looking for a job? Scared that the cause of unemployment may be growing? Sign up for free at www.FlexJobs.com and see who’s hiring today!
FAQs on High Paying Jobs with No Degree
Yes, there are several types of jobs that do not require a college degree but can still offer competitive salaries. Some examples include web developers, software engineers, medical coders, sales professionals and IT support staff.
What qualifications do I need for these jobs? The requirements for these types of positions vary depending on the job and company, but often include certifications or specialized training in the field you are interested in pursuing.
In addition to technical skills, employers are looking for individuals who demonstrate strong problem solving abilities, excellent communication skills and an understanding of customer service principles.
Here are some examples of high paying jobs that don’t require a college degree:
-Commercial pilots: median salary of $121,430 per year
-Detectives and criminal investigators: median salary of $81,920 per year
-Nuclear power reactor operators: median salary of $94,350 per year
-Power distributors and dispatchers: median salary of $83,020 per year
-Real estate brokers: median salary of $61,720 per year
-Elevator installers and repairers: median salary of $80,180 per year
-Web developers: median salary of $73,760 per year
-Petroleum engineers: median salary of $137,170 per year
-Computer network architects: median salary of $112,690 per year
-Medical and health services managers: median salary of $100,980 per year
Yes, there are many high paying jobs that don’t require a college degree but do require experience. Some examples include:
-Commercial pilots: typically require several years of flight experience as a co-pilot before being considered for a pilot position.
-Detectives and criminal investigators: typically require several years of experience in a related field, such as a police officer or federal agent.
-Nuclear power reactor operators: require extensive on-the-job training and experience.
-Real estate brokers: typically require several years of experience as a real estate agent before becoming a broker.
-Petroleum engineers: typically require several years of experience in the oil and gas industry before being considered for a position as a petroleum engineer.
After reviewing your website I am curious if you currently have an effective digital marketing strategy?
I have been creating successful digital marketing campaigns that have a high ROI for 15 years helping thousands of companies just like yours.
All of this is to much work. Can’t you get payed to take surveys at home or something?
I just wanted to say that I currently hold a position in my workplace as a Quality Inspector II and still don’t have a certificate but I am working towards getting it finished by years end.
As it stands now I am currently at 45,000 a year but I’ve bumped that up to 63,000 this past year because my company allows us to have as much overtime pay as we want. I ended up working a total of 700+ hours overtime last year which brought me to the 63,000 total for 2017.
As for the future I’m working towards getting my certificate and eventually becoming a Quality Inspector III by years end which will bring me to $55,000 a year at my current position.
The company I work for is amazing and the benefits they provide like matching 401k and retirement insurance really is an wonderful addition to the company.
In the end I can only say Salary positions may give you a large amount each year but if your able to land a job that allows for overtime that also has a high pay rate then go for it. I did and it worked out and I hope it does for you as well!
Good advice Michael!
Hi Michael, How did you get started as a Quality Inspector?
Hi, my name is Bernice i’m 56 years old , Dental assistant with no certification. I’ve worked in this field since i was 17 years old ,and a single mother, this job gave me everything. Things were great. I met a wonderful guy we got married and had a son of our own.life was great ! As time passed both our boys would be college graduates one became a teacher the other would work at the county clerks office. My husband worked in foreign exchange but over time the stress of the job would have him make a few career moves, then he went become a special ed social studies teacher.again things were great my husband had a job with benefits he had security and I continued working in a different dental office. After 30yrs being married my life would change my husband would develop a cancerous brain tumor and would die after 7months, thats with treatment, now I say life not fair as I find my self not just mourning but trying to put my life together. I now I’m struggling to get my diploma, the math part of this is …tough! I’m trying to get job with benefits because insurance is expensive ! so I ask you do you do you have any suggestion on what route I should take ? I feel like I’m stuck in neutral ….ugh
Hi Bernice – What will the diploma be in? You know you could become a dental hygenist with a two-year degree? You can probably get it at a community college. As to the short run with health insurance, there are part-time jobs that provide it, like Starbucks and many of the banks and credit unions.
I made $29/hour as a mailman with no college degree. $60k per year base. I got tired of it though and making a career change now at 40 years old.
My daughter just got her Bachelors degree on scholarship with no college debt and got excepted into several schools for her Masters on a full ride as well. College makes a lot more sense if you can do it straight out of high school and on scholarship, or live at home to cut room and board and pay as you go, or go to a Community College.
I make between 85-105K a year (depending how busy we are in that given year) not including my benefit packages as a Non Destructive Tester/Inspector
No college required. just certifications and hours OJT
I’m very interested in getting into Non Destructive Testing. How did you get into the career? Also, do you have any good resources you could point a newbie to who wants to get into the industry?
Mike was an operations manager of ours who is no longer at the company. However, if you are still interested in the Nondestructive Testing Field and would like to get your education for it, the American Institute makes it convenient for individuals who are working and who want to pursue a career in the field. We’ll be more than happy to assist you!
What state you are from, and what company you work for if you don’t mind? I was NDT/UT Level I and passed my exams and min hours required for Level II.
It depends on what you want as your long-term career. If it calls for a degree then go get one. If not, then just undergo the training needed. Unfortunately, most people (including myself) just realize this when they are already old and everything is just too late.
I became a Cdl driver at 22 no highschool diploma doing honest work making $50,000 my first year. trucking is a great financial boost for a any person looking to take step up from minimum wage job I will be saving my money for further education the trick to making money on trucking is hold out for good jobs never be pushed around at work truckers are in such high demand a driver has much control over his or her workspace and can demand raises and such within reason … Also avoid Cdl schools learn on your own time and make freinds in the business save money and stay debt free.
My brother is a landscape architect. He says you can not practice unless you are licensed, and you can not be licensed unless you have at least a bachelors degree. You can get a certificate, but most firms don’t hire you unless you have a bachelors – it’s a 5 year degree in most cases.
Thanks Jeff! I been wondering if urban/city planners tend to be on demand if they have a Master’s and are licensed?
This is the same old dog and pony show that we’ve heard for years that it is not necessary to have any education in order to get high paying jobs. If it is too good to be true… then it probably is, and that’s the honest truth. Tech school trades within the European nations such as Germany do pay trades people well with benefits… but US employers view and reward Tech graduates with less pay and benefits. There is definitely a glass ceiling with technical degrees and certainly very little opportunity for those with no education beyond high school. Publications like these really mislead young people and struggling adults by telling them that with little to no education you can make a sustainable occupation happen. It is just not true. Good pay and future requires education within a trade that is in demand a good outlook for the future. No education beyond high school will mean flipping hamburgers or cleaning other peoples messes in the service trades, period!
Many people will tell you and prove that they do get paid. My brother is an IT tech that fixes everyones computers and he has only a GED. His starting wage was 20.00 an hour. I went to college and got a bachelors degree and only get 16.00 an hour and work two jobs to make ends meet.
My wife is a COA(certified ophthalmic assistant) at a big Hospital and makes $21.80 an hour and gets overtime. She only has her High school diploma.
UT shearwave tech/ ndt inspector 32-36$ hr
Phazed array cert is 45$ an hour
some other jobs in the industry:
Qc dept 40$ hr
union welder 40$ hr
union pipe fitter 50$ hr
CWI / API 40-55$ hr
there are infact jobs with zero college education that make money.
there is still education involved but most of it is on the job and short few month courses, and usually paid for by the employer.
people who think the only avenue for a good job is going in debt for a high $ degree are missing out on good opportunities and they are strapping themselves with debt with no guarantee of a good job.
go ahead and go to college, my friends did, now they work for 15$ hr and have 60K in debt…meanwhile I make an average of 80=5-105K a year with zero debt.
I am an environmental tech at a coal gasification plant. Rate of pay $80k per yr.
I’m a high school drop out but nobody knows it. Never been asked for a diploma 🙂
How did you get started? What was the process you went thru to get the job.
That’s funny, I didn’t finish high school and the only certificate I have is a GED. I’m in sales I have been for 2yrs now and I made 50 my 1st yr and 54 this year. So your statement is totally false. And the top salesman where I work only has a ged and made 240k last year and 170k this year!
I have no formal education. I have many years of life and job experience and have been in the 6 figures. Its about selling yourself and being skilled at something. As you see with Mark Zukenberg, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs….they are all drop outs. Don’t be miss led. If you are going to be a brain surgeon… yes you need an education.
Would you please help me in what you do ?
That’s pretty ignorant to say! I didn’t go to college or trade school. I’m 26 years old in an upper management position where I make $50,000 a year, have equity in the company I work for, and have wonderful growth potential. I don’t flip hamburgers and I don’t clean up anyone’s messes. Most of my friends did go to college, have massive debt, can’t find jobs in their chosen fields, and are flipping burgers and cleaning up other people’s messes at low paying jobs.
Good for you Megan! It’s possible to be successful regardless of your qualifications. A college degree certainly can improve your chances, and it is generally required in certain fields, like nursing or engineering. But there’s a lot to be said for effort, dedication, God-given talent, and a willingness to improve.
I have friends that have gone to college and have struggled to find well paying jobs, unfortunately I fall under the same boat as well. I live in NYC currently unemployed and I’m in dire need of something, anything lucrative to invest my time. I don’t want to take out loan to go back to college.
If anyone sees this and can help please feel free to reply , it’s difficult being unemployed out here.
It is most definitely possible to make good money with out a 4 year degree. You can get a AAS in about a year and a half in IT and make 65k a year starting in the midwest. After a few years you can make a lot more. There really is no need to get a 4 year degree for every job. If you have skill in something that doesn’t require one. Some employers will hire people with AAS and then pay for the bachelors degree as long as that person stays with the company for X years or meets other requirements.
Hi Alex – That’s definitely true in some fields, certainly IT. But not all – nursing, teaching and engineering come to mind. No degree, and you won’t even get in the door.
Well said Alex and Jeff. Some fields that require a Master’s minimum as I read are Archives, Library Science, Counseling, HealthCare Social Work, Speech Pathology, I/O Psychology, Urban Planning and Political Science. Also, one to practice law requires 3 years of grad school post college.
It is so sad and heartbreaking to hear of occupations as Social Work, Teaching, Library Science which are helping professions but pay little compared to others and require a Bachelors minimum and even MA to work in field and earn less than fields where not even past high school diploma required.
I have been in the construction and trucking industry for a long time and our employees make well over 70k a year and going up, I don’t have any college education and own several businesses. All profitable and all debt free. As a business owner I see many hard working people making a lot of money without any higher education. I personally know many other construction business owners that barely passed grade school and yet are multi millionaires through hard work, determination and not allowing a simple graduate certificate to dissuade them. In every industry from tile, electrical, plumbing framing, brick, Trucking, painting, etc. Most people dont want to enter these industries because in my opinion it is very hard work and you need to hustle to make a profit. But the profits can be very rewarding. The mentality of needing a college degree to be successful is in my opinion, wrong and marketed nationwide. Thats not even getting started on the current student loan fiasco happening. Please be aware that in no way am I against education. But the simple fact is that we dont ALL need to have a college degree, and if flipping burgers is what you truly desire to do and have a passion for it, there is nothing wrong with that either. Who doesn’t enjoy having a great burger, and isn’t one of the largest franchise owners in America or is it the world a burger joint? Currently my wife and I are on our own path to financial freedom and will be Millionaires by age 40 and that’s if our income doesn’t go up at all. Being business owners all we need to do to raise our income is… work a bit more, or, scale and have some more employees, or Start another business, IDK. I found a passion in finances so who knows. Maybe Financial Advisor is in my future.
I guess what im saying is a degree will not ensure that you get a good paying job, or that you get a job at all for that matter. It is your attitude and determination, your quality of service you provide others, among other things, That is what the determining factor will be in your path to success.
P.S. I was only able to get a 6th grade education due to moving to south America at a young age, years later moving back I got a GED and taught myself another language to better serve the people I was working for at the time. At 19 I was making 68k a year and going up. No college education, no High school education. Anything is possible. Especially these days.
Hope you all find your passion
It’s great to have an “enthusiastic” discussion on education. However, the name-calling on all sides tends to detract from the discussion.
Let’s look at this issue from a slightly different viewpoint. First, who can tell what the minimum reading and math requirements are for a person to survive in our society. All of the previous comments tend to center around some form of higher education. The need for additional training within one’s field or occupation is obvious in order to keep up with the wonderful advancements in science. However, let’s start with basics. What level of reading do the majority of jobs in the US require? What level of mathematics is required for the majority of jobs in the US? This is the first question we need to ask and then address our public school educational programs to ensure that the students have this basic level of education. Obviously, this is a great dissertation topic and would undoubtedly received generous funding from somebody. In a sample conversation with half a dozen local businesses ranging from employment of common laborers to hospital support personnel the results are basically simple. Most basic survival reading skills can be taught by 6th or 8th grade. (Trying to define 6th or 8th grade reading level is a another issue due to the different ways of measuring reading levels.) Basic math skills can be taught by the fifth or sixth grade. Before students can move on to additional training in their area of interest, they have to demonstrate that they know these basic skills. Then, through aptitude and interest testing they can be guided into a career field that currently interests them. However, again, you understand that the kids will probably change their minds during this course of training. An example of this concept is that a student who has an interest in farming would need to be guided to take courses in animal husbandry, basic chemistry, business, and computer research related to this occupation.
In the past, our public school systems have been training people to be of assembly line workers. Example: “Class take out your social studies textbook, turn to page 54, Johnny read the first paragraph. As one can see this example requires little or no thinking. A better approach might be to ask the class what is next on the schedule, where did we leave off, who can summarize what we have read to date and who can summarize or explain the first paragraph? Obviously school districts, allowing teachers with this level of freedom are few and far between because many districts who receive state and federal funding are required to follow basically mandated programs. The students are tested to ensure that they have been taught these required programs. I received complaints constantly from interns and student teachers that they have to accomplish on a given day a given lesson regardless of the needs of the students. The other problem is that much of the teaching time is spent on teaching current “politically correct or socially correct” philosophies. Why don’t we define what the minimally required skills are needed for our children to survive in our society? At present, it appears that public schools are simply apprentice level training classes for colleges. There are many areas within our society that need skilled and enthusiastic workers just to maintain our society. These areas can include, but are not limited to: electricians, plumbers, veterinarian assistants, etc.. And Yes, there is a need for those with more training. Whether you call it advanced or college or something else to move our society beyond where we are now. But first, let’s make sure that the basic survival skills are provided to everybody, and they prove they have learned them. Then, based on testing, counseling (of course, we need to have enough counselors in our schools with caseloads that enable them to counsel not move numbers.) Move the students into areas that they have an interest, some aptitude, and support in. Just maybe more kids will stay in school longer and out of less desirable occupations like gangs and crime. Then we can argue about the merits of different types of advanced education, one must take to accomplish additional goals. Think about it.
You ask “What level of mathematics is required?”
I believe I can make a good argument that everyone should have an Elementary School proficiency in mathematics. First, that means they should be able to give change to any retail customer.
True story, I walked into a bakery and had to wait 20 minutes for the cashier (the fastest growing profession in America that should be completely gone in say the next 20 years) to find a calculator since the person couldn’t even do this level of math on paper: I was buying two dozen cupcakes at $0.49 each. What did I owe? Personally, I believe to be “competent” that the person should have been able to solve this problem in but a couple of seconds in their heads. Alas, I have asked dozens of K-12 teachers and only one could do so after about 5 minutes. Clearly, the problem is that teachers can’t teach what they don’t know.
Here’s another Elementary math problem. I can fill a hole in the ground with a hose in 30 minutes. I can also fill it with a smaller hose in 45 minutes. How long will it take to fill the hole using both hoses? I have asked not only dozens of K-12 teachers, I have asked many American engineers who all couldn’t answer this question. Now, I have also asked a dozen Asians (from China, Japan, South Korea, and Malaysia) who were shop owners, students, etc. and they could ALL easily answer this question in their head. Apple made the news last Spring for sending out thousand of interview letters and hiring hundreds of engineers. Alas, not a single letter went to an American as no American seems to have the education to handle Elementary School math. I say Elem math as the reason the Asians could all do this problem is that they were all required to answer this exact kind of question in under 60 seconds to graduate from Elem School.
Finally, you aren’t really emotionally an adult of any kind unless you want to make the world better. But, to do this, one must know what “better” means and the science of better is statistics. So, what is the equation for the Degrees of Freedom and what is its significance for statistics. I also consider this Elem math as I could answer it by Fifth Grade. And again, not even a single college researcher could answer this question (and less than 10% could answer why there are phases of the moon or seasons).
Does that answer your question? I believe the best way for things to change by firing any teacher or administrator who can’t answer these questions and that would mean firing ALL of them. Jaime Escalante (the motivation for the book America’s Greatest Teacher and the movie Stand and Deliver) was pushed out of education (where he could only get get a job in Bolivia) primarily due to his refusal to hire math teachers who couldn’t answer these types of questions (which was most of them) and NO parent complained. The competent teachers he hired did complain and so they were all likewise summarily dismissed. In response to their complaints as they were leaving, the incoming principal said, “They’re just disgruntled former employees, such backbiting only hurts the kids.” John Perex, VP of the Teachers Union, told the press (1990), “Jaime didn’t get along with some of the teachers at his school.” Jay Mathews, Washington Post columnist and author of The Best Teacher in America asked, “What’s up with a system that values working with others more highly than effectiveness?” Joe Williams, Executive Director of the Democrats for Education Reform, even wrote “I don’t understand why parents are not lighting fires and hurling rocks every night through the Mayor’s windows. I’m not joking – it’s astonishing.” I say the same thing… it’s astonishing.
Then, you ask about reading skills.
I believe every person should get an Eighth Grade reading education. Alas, the best state in the country, Connecticut, only provides this for half of their children. For example, what are the three classifications for the “CH” sound? In a spelling bee, the most important question a speller may ask is the nation of origin and I am basically asking the same thing. Not one of the dozens of K-12 teachers (and only two of the dozens of others) could answer this very basic English language question. As an American, you should be ashamed for allowing this to happen. I’m astonished! I was most concerned about the two English Grammar and Spelling tests I had to take in order to become a college instructor as an “Engneer” who only had a 485 on my English SAT. I scored an average of 92, the othertechies scored an average of 85, and the Masters in Education who were already teaching K-12 classes scored an average of 35. IF they had known any math or science they would have been considered too illiterate to be a STEM teachers but because their area of “expertise” was English they were the best to be found and they were all hired to teach English at the College level!
Finally, before any math and science, there must be a moral education. You can rent the movie The Marva Collins story. She had her first Second Grade class in a public school in South Chicago on the very first day of school reading Shakespeare, Plato, and Emerson to create a basis for why to be in school. Within days, her kids were giving up watching TV to study and they all advanced four to five grades that year. The other teachers only sent her death threats (just like the other teachers had done to Dr. Escalante) and spread rumors that she beat her kids and did the work for them. By the end of her first year, she had her class taken away and that was the end of her career in public education. Fortunately, she didn’t give up and she started her own school where the Fifth graders were generally reading at a Tenth Grade level (past what I considered minimally required) and 13 of the 30 students had been formally labeled by education “experts” as “Learning Disabled and Unable to ever learn to Read or Write” and didn’t even know the alphabet at the beginning of the year. 60 Minutes did a show in 1980 about little Erica who had an IQ of 75 and had been so labeled in Forth Grade but was now reading at a Tenth Grade Level and they did a follow up story when she graduated from the University of Virginia Cum Laude with a 4.0 grade average. This was also true of the first class of Ron Clark in Harlem when his kids had the highest test scores in NYC by Christmas (as per the Ron Clark Story). You can also rent The Knights of the Bronx and see David McNulty or rent the George Mckenna Story (or Hard Lessons) and watch they do the same in the Bronx and LA. All these teachers produced 100% success (in fact, 26% of all Mexican-Americans passing AP exams were the students of Dr. Escalante) in neighborhoods where two thirds lived below the poverty line in the most violent neighborhoods with the greatest father absenteeism. So, why don’t we today expect this level of success in every school? Well, the two statisticians that wrote Freakonomics showed the profession containing the people most likely to cheat is K-12 teaching.
RKawka, you seem to be suggesting that you don’t believe that EVERY child should be ready to enter Harvard by the time they graduate High School and that the schools that fail at this shouldn’t be fined. I find it odd that the dirt poor farming Pilgrims passed just such a law in 1650 (The General Education Laws) and seem to place a higher emphasis on the importance of a college education than you do today (almost four centuries later)? Why do you think that is? Personally, I assume it due to your great naiveté. Not to be insulting, just truthful. It’s time to allow incompetent teachers LESS freedom to… in the words of Bill Gates at a Governor’s Convention… “limiting, even ruining, the lives of millions of Americans every year.” NO state follows government regulations for one thing because Reading First federal monies are supposed to only go to schools that follow a scientifically based reading program and only 3% of our nation’s school districts do that. Clearly, it’s time to allow LESS freedom to schools as well. EVERY state is leaving kids behind and NO state is teaching all kids, even the fundamentals. While we have the world’s highest self-esteem, we have the worst test scores (just the opposite for South Korea). Few employees in any field have the required skills (seven of ten employees are neither motivated nor competent to perform the basic tasks of their job) and we’re not even talking about important life skills such as financial life skills.
I again don’t mean to be insulting, but you seem to know absolutely nothing about education. You say “Move the students into areas that they have an interest, some aptitude.” Despite all the evidence suggesting the quality and fit of our environments trumps any genetics (Dr. Phelps, 2005), Americans like you refuse to consider anything but a fate from birth. It doesn’t matter that “the Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (2006) makes a rather startling assertion: the trait we commonly call talent is highly overrated. Or, put another way, expert performers ‘whether in memory or surgery, ballet or computer programming’ are nearly always made, not born.” (Drs. Steven Leavitt and Stephen Dubner, authors of Freakonomics, quote from The New York Times). Harvard’s Dr. Howard Garner showed most children score genius level IQ’s up to the age of four, but that percentage goes down to 10% as teenagers and 2% for those over 20. While natural and statistical, this also happens primarily due to the discouragement from the mobbing efforts orchestrated by what Drs. Livingston and Rosenthal called Negative Pygmalions and Dr. Satir called False Levelers producing what Dr. Michael Ray calls the Voice of Judgment. Typically the greatest abuse comes from teachers (read Pygmalion in the Classroom by Dr. Rosenthal, 1962 or Blaming the Victim by William Ryan, 1970 – there are more current books, like Teaching Like a Champ, but you need to start with the basics). Malcolm Gladwell tells in Outliers: the Story of Success how today only lucky breaks and arbitrary advantages are the real source of most successes. He tells of Dr. Barnsley finding how the best hockey players are five times more likely born in January than November, baseball players are almost twice as likely born in August than July, and soccer players are most likely born in September (now January), due to the arbitrary age cut offs done in the respective kid’s leagues. Why is this? Young children born just after the cut off age are quite logically larger than those born just before and so perform better. Kids bigger from being older are called “naturally gifted” and receive the most encouragement and training, what is in reality key for any success. But, we completely reject any possibility that this might be true as doing so would open the door for facing the reality we must likewise take responsibility for creating “stories of failure” as well. And so, we all tell the lie that not everyone can be a champion, that only a few have the chance. I am astonished that you are not ashamed. My favorite scene from Stand and Deliver is when the principal asks all the teachers before an important standardized school-wide exam whether every teacher was doing all they could and only Escalante stated he knew he was not. Be honest, truth be told, you’re not doing anything useful (based on the science available).
hey where are you? your posts give me hope that no matter the person or situation everyone is capable so could you give me a suggestion if your still around?
So, if you’re so much better than everyone else, why aren’t you a teacher? Where did you go to school? (Probably some private boarding school) You need to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you start judging others.
Just out of curiosity how long will it take to fill the hole if one is filled in 30 minutes and one is filled in 45 minutes and both hoses are used to fill the hole? Please explain how you got your answer.
Break down the amount of fill per minute
first hose will fill the hole 1/30 in 1 minute
second hose will fill the hole 1/45 in 1 minute
find the least common denominator which is 90
so we end up with 3/90 +2/90 = 5/90 and reduce to
1/18. This tells us 1/18 of the hole will be filled in 1 minute and in 18 minutes the hole is filled with both hoses.
I am a 2nd grade teacher, and did the math differently. If you filled the hose with the two with 30min, it would take 15. If you filled the whole with the 45 min hoses, it would take 22.5 minutes. I just divided the difference in 2 and got 3.25 and added to the 15. Not as exact, but easily done in the head. Cupcakes were also easy. 24 x 1/2 -24 cents. as it was 49 and not 50cents.
As far as the torturous English language that has 44 phonemes, (I have to teach 2nd language learners as most my students speak Spanish as their 1st language, you have 3 distinct sounds with the same spellings, as you mentioned…the classic cha sound, a j sound, and of course just the k sound alone. Knowing these things does not make me a poor or good teacher. Thoughtfully planning learning experiences, checking for comprehension and giving them opportunities to think outside the box does. Please don’t diss the capabilities of the teaching profession so lightly.
Perhaps the cashier needed to use a calculator due to time efficiency, but had anxiety. That cashier could have very well calculated those numbers (via thought or on paper) but didn’t have enough time to or was so anxious with all of the people, they were stuck and freaking out. Even with a calculator.
What a bad example.
On top of that, most human beings *can’t* do math in their head that quickly unless they have a knack for mathematics. So, you thinking the K-12 teachers not being able to do that math problem was because they were incompetent is unfair.
I’ve read every post in this communication dialog-and find the conversation very interesting.
Personally, I choose to look at every person’s viewpoint/input as valuable. Stepping back and looking at the bigger picture in this dialogue — I’d like to offer my opinion (note it’s only “my” opinion)–as I’m not personally signaling out any one comment as the “right or wrong” point of view.
I think there’s good points made on both sides of this discussion. Realistically-there’s no right or wrong answer here (again my”opinion”) -but rather a mixture of reality of factual truth from both sides I think.
I don’t think there is a right answer. Every person is different. Every person learns differently. Every person’s situation (life, family, finances) is different. What’s works for some, won’t work for others.
I can only look at examples of the many different individuals and scenarios I’ve witnessed through the years as proof. Starting with myself.
My story. I came from a single mother home–a financially struggling home. I finished high school. I went to college– but after my sophomore year I simply ran out of money. So I returned home to Florida and got a job to “re-save” money to finish school. Like many in Florida-I went to work for Disney. And a funny thing happened while working there… My job was the “best education” I could ever have gotten– and I got paid to learn it. It was better than any university I could have attended… On so many fronts. Not only did I have the most talented mentors creatively, but the best work ethic training available–as doing things any less than perfect is not The Disney way–and they run a well oiled, tight ship in every way.
I did return to school, but not to finish my original commercial art degree–as unless one wanted to teach, a degree didn’t matter. Only a good portfolio and talent mattered. I returned for a degree in sign design…which was a specialized program–a trade school is how I’d reference it. From there, I consistently took business, and professional seminars from the best coaches available in different industries to round out my business, marketing, and management skills. I admit… It was a very different course than many followed in my industry; but for me- it was the right path.
Having said all that–It’s an undeniable fact that we live in a very different world today-and the reality is that information and technology is changing faster that people can learn it. A person no sooner learns a software program- only to have a new version released (which means re-learning commands and operational info in many programs)–you buy a new computer and within a few months it’s being replaced by the new/improved model. Technology is advancing so fast that most people barely process what they’ve learned one day only to face an on-slaught of new must-need-to-know info the next day.
Employers (in most industries) now want a more diverse skill level for most positions- allowing them to hire less people… Which realistically puts more pressure on each employee to accomplish the workload of two people. Whether it happens via a down-sizing (eliminating a position & dividing up that person’s responsibilities to remaining personnel) or by adding it to the next new hire–it is now a reality in America’s business world. More stress, more pressure–making it harder in many situations to maintain, let alone advance.
Technology can be a wonderful thing (and is in many ways)–but it has it’s down side too. Computers in general has given individuals that didn’t have the skill level to perform jobs before to do so today. And in some industries that is proving NOT to be a good thing. Let me provide one example that I know from 1st hand experience.
Computers have given individuals with technical/production ability (whether it be natural born or via training) to sell themselves as designers (in both graphic design & web design). And I’m not trying to be demeaning–because there are some very talented production/technical & web individuals in the work force. But it’s extremely rare to see attractive, effective graphic/communication design come from either. One either has god-given creative talent or trained creative ability. One needs to have training, knowledge and skill to be able to create well executed communication materials- they need know/understand the basics of the good perspective, proper use of space, good balance, color theory, type useage, and effective strategic research that will achieve results for clients. Good communication design is more than computer generated layouts. Sadly today in the advertising industry, the computer is a two-edged sword. Untrained, non-artistically talented individuals now think themselves designers… Which has unfortunately led to much mediocrity in the fields of design and web. I can’t tell you how many web coders that regard themselves designers… And I’ve seen some scary websites as a result. And when this senario repeats itself over and over–design graduates-professionally trained, loose employment opportunities.
Being a creative director, I lead a team of designers-and have had staff that took many different paths to become designers. Some went to universities, some specialized art institutes, some community colleges, and a few individuals that had no degree at all–but were born creatively gifted and learned the trade by entering the work force. So, I guess you can say I’ve experienced individuals from every venue.
I will offer my perspective. It totally depends on the individual. Some need college…some don’t. College simply isn’t for everyone. People learn differently-which is okay. Some people are hands-on learners and do best in a real-world workplace environment (what = a mentor ship of sorts). Some do best in a dedicated apprentice program, and some at trade schools.
Simply put… In my opinion it’s all good. Again, it depends on the individual (and discipline of course–nurses, doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. are exceptions)… But even with these there are different venues to enter their discipline.
One thing I do gave a “strong” opinion on is that: not all school’s are equal. Any and all schools are only as good as the professors! There used to be a saying: ” Those who can do-and those who can’t teach”. Now, while I don’t believe this accurate in the true sense of the word… I will say that I’ve had staff from 4 yr university programs that aren’t as good as staff from 2 yr community college programs. And probing into their education specifics regarding the methodology used by professors, the foundations that their education was based–I was disappointed at the shallow depth of knowledge some were taught, as well as the unrealistic expectations some schools are projecting to their graduates regarding the real world career path.
It seems every year the attitude of entitlement of the younger generation’s graduates grows. Very few feel they need to earn their merits– but that they deserve them. And sadly, I find the more prestigious the school– the bigger the attitude issue.
My closing thought… Perspective.
Perspective is a funny thing… Sometimes it’s hard to find–but once found everything comes into alignment to guide one’s thought and vision. When asked by a young person today what school I recommend (no matter their financial situation), my answer is: Perspective. I tell them to ask themselves where they want to be 5 yrs from now–to search their minds until they can answer that… And then chart a course that will get them there-no matter the course that is right for them (trade school, community college, university, work force, etc.).
I honestly believe that there’s not enough thought about what people want to do with their futures down the road-not the immediate, next year.
Had I myself done that–I would have never gone to a university. Had I really took perspective on what I wanted, I would if researched different options available…and not just did what everyone has programmed into young people… and went automatically to college!
No, check your perspective— and then let it lead each individual to the path that is right for them. Only by finding that perspective will people avoid going to the wrong higher priced school (when maybe a cheaper school really is a better school?)… maybe it would help people research career path options more carefully so they could make sure it was a growing field…. Just slowing the process down and finding one’s perspective can save so many errors. Research is the best venue for each individual.
But you know… Having read of all your different experiences/expertise– it’d be nice to try and find a way to use your varied success/knowledge base to possibly offer suggestions to some individuals that have posted that are struggling and would probably welcome some guidance, encouragement from you…
Have a great day everyone 🙂
Hey Ria, Thanks for contributing.
You say “I don’t think there is a right answer.”
Well, two plus two is always four. There is always a “right” answer to an honest search for truth. Now, each answer might not be exactly correct such as F=MA being corrected (not disproved) by Relativity. Perhaps, you’ll say that LIFE can’t be solved by math and science and I would ask what scientific evidence might you have to support that opinion (ha ha). The only source can be the most powerful force in psychology – the self-confirmation bias. When I ask people, for example, what they learned from say reading the Bible most everyone starts their answer with “Well, like I’ve always said.” Except, that’s clearly NOT the way to start a real lesson story.
You say “Every person learns differently.”
While, this is a common belief, it’s not really true. Now, there might be slight differences. This is why a machine education can use “mass customization” to perfect a standard for each individual (a term invented by and for Dell computers). Let’s say I would like to build a K-12 school where EVERY child learns at EXACTLY the same rate – starting with advancing 4-5 years for the first year of the child. Now, I don’t mean just kids with high IQ’s (a meaningless measure even NO educators understand) but even kids with IQ’s say o 75 who school experts have identified as “learning disabled – unable to EVER learn to read or write.” If you are like most people, you will say such a dream is logically impossible. I would say, if you are such a person, that you clearly need to raise your opinion of what possible as Marva Collins actually built that school over 35 years ago in South Chicago. Sadly, as the South Chicago school district was complaining that twice the money spent by Marva on each of her students wasn’t enough to education ANY child properly, she had to close her school because no one in America wanted to attend.
You say “I can only look at examples of the many different individuals and scenarios I’ve witnessed through the years as proof.”
This is a foolish thing to say common to the uneducated. As you’re already read above in my posting, Dr. Deming (the father of Quality Mgt) ofen said, ““Experience by itself teaches nothing… without theory, experience has no meaning. Without theory, one has no questions to ask. Hence, without theory, there is no learning.” Sadly, Deming wasn’t able to find a single American Manager willing to listen (much like yourself) even though everything he’s ever said has only be repeatedly verified (which you would know if you ever valued an education or had any respect for those who’ve made the effort).
You say “I went to college– but after my sophomore year I simply ran out of money.”
There is $17 billion dollars in scholarship aid available each year and almost ALL is based on need. How much did you apply for? I often help the homeless here in Tucson and show the men how easily it is to get free education even if you haven’t had an address for years. Some have returned to tell me I saved their lives but the great majority of them (like others have demonstrated here) tell me such is impossible and continue to fail. My favorite line from the book America’s Greatest Teacher that didn’t make it into the movie Stand and Deliver is when a snotty reporter asked Dr. Jaime Escalante if he thought he could get more poor kids into college than Hollywood High could get rich kids. After hemming and hawing for a few minutes, Jaime said that in the end money mattered. But, he was wrong. Not only did he get over a quarter of all Mexican-American kids to pass AP exams after being his students, he got more poor kids (with NO money) into IVY schools than did Hollywood High with rich kids who had plenty of money. Again, if you read my postings above, you already know this but just prefer to believe what you what to believe (and that’s called bigotry).
You say “My job was the “best education” I could ever have gotten–better than any university I could have attended.”
And, how many universities have you attended? I assume thousands if not tens of thousands to be sure of such a statement. Right? BTW, what is your opinion on why Disney has a BIG dollar research lab at Carnegie (please, tell us YOUR experience with the people there) if they themselves wouldn’t recommend a college education for anyone who hopes to get a job there? (see http://www.cmu.edu/corporate/partnerships/disney_lab.shtml).
You say “A person no sooner learns a software program- only to have a new version released.”
There were tens of thousands of computer languages invented in the 60’s and 70’s (and I personally worked with most of them). There was about a hundred created in the 80’s and 90’s. Tell, how many computer languages does a person who learned C in the early 70’s, then learned C++ in the 80’s, and finally C# fifteen years ago (an natural thing to do as each one is based on the previous one), how many new programs do you think that 60 year old needs to learn to be employable today? If the answer is more than zero, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s MUCH easier to be in technology today than 50 years ago. 25% of all computers in use today still use XP from 2001. CPU clock speeds haven’t increased, resolutions haven’t improved, and we’re still using Ethernet invented in the 70’s (so, becoming a certified ATM Engineer in the 90’s wasn’t all that useful). I find kids today are MORE ignorant of technology, it’s just a black box that does magic.
Finally, you talk about natural born skills and “god-given creative talent.”
Despite all the evidence suggesting the quality and fit of our environments trumps any genetics (Dr. Phelps, 2005), Americans refuse to consider anything but a fate from birth. It doesn’t matter that “the Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (2006) makes a rather startling assertion: the trait we commonly call talent is highly overrated. Or, put another way, expert performers ‘whether in memory or surgery, ballet or computer programming’ are nearly always made, not born.” (Drs. Steven Leavitt and Stephen Dubner, from The New York Times Magazine, authors of Freakonomics). Malcolm Gladwell tells in Outliers: the Story of Success how today only lucky breaks and arbitrary advantages are the real source of most successes. He tells of Dr. Barnsley finding how the best hockey players are five times more likely born in January than November, baseball players are almost twice as likely born in August than July, and soccer players are most likely born in September (now January), due to the arbitrary age cut offs done in the respective kid’s leagues. Why is this? Young children born just after the cut off age are quite logically larger than those born just before and so perform better. Kids bigger from being older are called “naturally gifted” and receive the most encouragement and training, what is in reality key for any success. But, we completely reject any possibility that this might be true as doing so would open the door for facing the reality we must likewise take responsibility for creating “stories of failure” as well. And so, we all tell the lie that not everyone can be a champion, that only a few have the chance. Again, the only thing you’re demonstrating is your bigotry based on your ignorance. That’s not your real problem; it’s that you’re proud of it. In the education biz, you are known as a “functional illiterate.” Just because there are currently many paths to employment that doesn’t mean there isn’t an ideal path and one even better than that if people like you could somehow finally learn how to learn.
You say “not all schools are equal.”
I have a degree from an Ivy school and 1.5 from very NOT ivy schools. The alumni from the Ivy schools like to talk about how they are just naturally smarter than everyone else and the alumni from the NOT Ivy schools like to say their degree is just as good. I believe they’re both wrong and often get myself in trouble to telling them so. It’s also true that ALL schools could be better. But, following your advice we more often just try something else. I believe far more powerful than our vote in a democratic society is our checkbook. Newsweek’s #1 rated school in America is Basis (a Charter school that started in Arizona) which spends almost half of what most public schools spend. The problem IHMO is that we don’t know how to measure better (well, science does but you don’t) and we NEVER fight for it. When Dr. Jaime Escalante was fired shortly after the movie about him was released, the principal and counselor moved to other schools, and the seven teachers Jaime hired were pushed out, not a single parent complained.
You say “It seems every year the attitude of entitlement of the younger generation’s graduates grows.”
But, not in immigrants… that’s why they’re twice as likely to become millionaires in America (based both on less entitlement as well as greater value in education) than our own children. Immigrants are our countries only hope. Sadly, most companies have just given up and the most common jobs to be outsourced are middle class STEM jobs (to countries, even Canada, that value education more than us). Personally, I believe the biggest thing missing in our education is WHY get educated. I believe this is supposed to be the job of Social Studies. Marva first “trick” was to have her 2nd grade class read Plato, Shakespeare, and Emerson the FIRST day. Moreover, I believe the least educated person at my high school is still the dumbest person at today’s high schools… the employment counselor. Finally, I’ve always felt more schools should use the Drexel Univ model (my father taught there) of taking five years to get a four year degree (with 6 month of school and 6 month of guaranteed employment). But, even before that, I believe the Vocational Education Act of 1964 killed the Smith-Hughes Act of 1914, which, by intentional misinterpretation by every state killed our Dewey designed schools and made us forget that AMERICA invented what is today called a European Education. I believe fixing anything is only possible when you personally can admit to being the problem… so, what’s the chance of that?!?
I piss them off at church when I say, “We don’t need another revival; we need another reformation.” Have a nice day.
Speaking of outsourcing, such as Disney animation, one advantage of India is that their kids get more English education than ours do.
I’ve read TucsonJim’s comments and all I can say is wow. He is one angry, frustrated, bitter man. I feel sorry for him; hopefully he one day can find some internal peace.
Hi Rob: So, when did you learn the most useful and intelligent way to add value to the world was to do nothing but belittle and insult anyone you didn’t like. I assume it was at a very young age (say Kindergarten) and that no one has ever helped you develop any skills typically found in adults. You don’t provide any opinions or any references – I assume because you’re education wholly ended at the age of six. I am a male engineer from South Philly who was raised to believe what you have to say is more important than how you say it and you don’t seem to have anything to say. Perhaps, you should wait to post until you have something to say or at least leave the big people ideas to people who actually have them. You only demonstrate the sad waste of a mind never provided a real education and are but a perfect example of my point. Thanks for the validation but I really didn’t need it. Have a nice day.
BTW, it was big news a couple months ago when American computer company Apple (the world’s largest company currently) sent out thousands of interview offers to engineers and then hired about 300 of them. Was it a surprise to any one here with the common belief that tech jobs no longer require a real education that not a single one of those letters went to an American engineer. Previously when President Obama had asked Steve Jobs about reconsidering hiring Americans Jobs answered “those jobs are NEVER coming home again.” The only type of person this sad reality likely made by the very attitudes of this article and most commenters here does not make angry, frustrated, and bitter would be a completely cold hearted psychopath. And coincidently, two studies in 1991 (Epidemiologic Catchment Area study, sponsored by the National Institute of Mental Health) and 2011 have showed that in fact the number of psychopaths in America have doubled twice in the past 30 years. Dr. Martha Stout writes in The Sociopath Next Door one of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma making them more charming or interesting. That you do not find me charming or interesting is likely a good thing. Dr. Stout thinks American values and beliefs are the perfect breeding ground for psychopaths (which are far rarer in Asia). Tell me honestly, how does that make you feel. Might you feel no responsibility nor remorse? I’m not surprised. Dr. Hare (THE most highly respected expert) writes “our society is moving in the direction of permitting, reinforcing, and valuing the traits listed in [his] Psychopathy Checklist such as impulsivity, irresponsibility, lack of remorse.”
I’m not going to insult and bore everyone with statistics but give my experience. Raised by a single mom college didn’t seem a option 30+ years ago coming out of hs. I began working for my current employer at age 18 and I’ve done very well with hard work and by making good business decisions for my company. I will say I’m the exception. I’ve seen a lot of good and bad college educated employees come and go as well as good and bad non-college students. Many companies require a college degree because so many people have a degree, it’s really not hard to get a degree. I work at a mid-size manufacturing company and at least 75% of the jobs can be done well with a smart hard working employee without a degree. Hands on experience is what it takes for most jobs. With that said I have stressed throughout my kids lives they must get a college degree not because I think it will make them smarter but because it does give you options in life and options are always good. My daughter graduated from college 1 month ago and I’m dumb-founded by how little she will make and how hard it has been for her to get a job. She’s only expecting $30,000/year and she can’t find a job without work experience. When I came out of hs over 30 years ago I was offered multiple office jobs similar to what she is looking for every day and selected the one I wanted. My son went to school 1 year and chose to quit, he’s now looking at options for trade jobs, he’s had more employers interested in hiring him for trade apprentice jobs than she has with her 4 year degree and for more money. It’s tough for girls since most girls would struggle with trade jobs. I’m saying this as a woman who has been in the work force for over 30 years with a income over $90,000/year. It does not take a college education to perform most jobs at an exceptional level. With or without a degree companies need to give young people a chance to show what they can do…like we had in the old days. Everyone with and without a degree will need to learn business hands on and some will get it and some will not regardless of their education.Our work force is aging fast and I rarely see new employees under 30 years old, businesses today want education and work experience. Bottom line, I believe many jobs shouldn’t require a degree but bottom line…most companies require it so if you can get your kids to college send them even with the high cost. BTW, I never found any free college and my daughter wasn’t able to get any grants or loans due to our income. We paid every dime out of our pocket so she wouldn’t have debt and it’s a good thing because I have no idea how she would pay debt back on what she will earn coming out of college. FYI, we spent about $50,000 in 4 years and she went to a State University.
Pam Q says “I never found any free college and my daughter wasn’t able to get any grants or loans due to our income.”
Too bad no one told your daughter about merit based scholarships (which are not loans). I have a daughter whose parents made more than you and she was able to go for four years completely free. There are also scholarships for people who are left handed, one’s genealogy, field of study (becoming a physician assistant making at least $70,000 a year can be had for free), and then most state schools have lottery scholarships awarded at random. Finally, Drexel is a co-op school where 100% of ALL students are GUARANTEED employment while studying (providing the very experience you know to be so valuable). While the country has continued to move in the direction of need based assistance (whether that’s a good idea is certainly a topic for debate), there are still billions of dollars awarded not solely on need. Too bad your child didn’t have better sources for information. Of course, there’s also the Lifetime Learning Tax Credit. So, you need to have a real heart to heart with your tax preparer if you truly paid ALL the expenses.
You didn’t say what your daughter’s degree is in or what type of job she is seeking. You may want to suggest she consider K-12 teaching. There are states where the minimum salary is $40,000 (working 25% fewer days than the norm) and Master Teachers in South Carolina can easily make $75,000 to $100,000. After a few years she could work to become an Elementary School Principal and make significantly more. Fortunately for her, such opportunities require a college degree. Moreover, such employment is highly biased in favor of women.
Six Sigma is a manufacturing quality program created at Motorola that has long shown college statistics a prerequisite for excellence in any job. Again, it has long been shown that the value of one’s experience is greatly limited without an understanding of the underlying processes and technology. Alas, a lot of manufacturing has migrated overseas… not so much for a cheaper workforce but for one that is better educated (as per Bill Gates and chief executives from Intel and Cisco at a recent Governor’s Conference). Studies done years ago have shown that middle aged blue collar workers in Japan are years ahead in education than most American professionals. Being you are an American, I’m not surprised that you place little value on facts and statistics. As for women in trade jobs, my mother worked in construction and built (by herself) the home I grew up in, the local library, and half of the local community center. No one should ever suggest to any girl that she might not be suited to any particular careers just because she’s female… at least not IMHO.
Well I went to college for a year and a half straight and quit with a 3.9 gpa. I have no degree and make over 230k a year doing contract security work. So yes join the military, go to college for free, then make bank and retire before your 35.
It’s well documented that half of rising stocks do so only because of dumb luck by their corporate management, which is why everyone knows the line that past experience is no guarantee of future performance. Your limited college experience, dear Alan, likely means you’ve never passed a freshman statistics class in order to understand the significance for the “degrees of freedom” of a data set (maximum calculated by the simple equation of N-1). In other words, the statistically significant things one can say about a data set of one (eg: one’s personal experience) is… nothing. Clearly, you’ve shown you’ve managed the dumb aspect of dumb luck. A REAL education always carries real value. In fact, numerous suveys have shown education to be the most respected gift by employees and the best motivator. Or, employees are actually more motivated by education than money (the exception that “proves” the rule may of course be for a mercenary who kills for profit).
Wow Jim, you are all high and mighty aren’t you. Look at you all primitive like, pounding on your intellectual chest like a gorilla.Trying to make yourself all superior, you just proved that you are no better than an ape. What good does all that superior knowledge and intellect do if you can not even have a bit of humanity in you. You can disagree with someone respectfully, my guess is this gentlemen makes way more money than you do. So you with your higher education is simply jealous, most likely because you don’t make as much money.
Dear California Lesbian, Thank you greatly for recognizing my “superior knowledge” concerning the subject of education. Most impressive how you were able to provide several relevant and well considered facts without ever lowering yourself to base insults. Wait no, I got that backwards. Your posting was instead nothing but a perfect example of ignorant and proud of it… the natural result of a poor education. You are proud of your comments, aren’t you? Sure you are. The desire to be right is often belittled as an egotistical mental aberration (you’re not the first), often partnered with a marketing statement for happiness such as “I would rather be happy than right.” I like to respond to such sentiments with congratulations on how happy the speaker must be about being wrong (ha ha). And, you definitely seem happy about being wrong – no question about that. I bet your family, children, as well as your friends are all ignorant and proud of it as well… aren’t they? Well, have a nice life. Too bad about the legacy of unemployment and violence you’re leaving for the next generation… but, as long as you can sleep at night, well to Hell with anyone else… that’s how a “real” American shows his (or her) “humanity.”
You’re clearly intelligent and articulate, and you certainly know more about the educational system than me. But why are you so angry? Is it simply a case of being from Philly? (The “I’m not angry, I’m from Philly” syndrome?)
Your intellect and knowledge of the subject at hand come through in waves, but so does your anger. Perhaps your message would better resonate if you toned it down? Otherwise you just come off as angry, bitter, and disgruntled – and in the end that isn’t going to help people understand how the educational system works and its value therein. (That IS your goal here, correct?)
I (for one) enjoy your observations and facts about our educational system but I think your tone is hurting the overall cause.
Dear Ed: It is said, on the surface, life is simply intolerable. According to AA, life is in fact wholly unmanageable and we are powerless to change it. This is because, on the surface, life is nothing but symptoms. This is why the CEO of Toyota created the science of Five-Whys. The common example is a company finds statues that should last over 20 years are only lasting five. What should they do? The most common answer is to find other vendors or statues made of different materials. But, what you forgot to ask is WHY are the statues wearing out so quickly? You may have discovered a cleaning program using very harsh chemicals. And so, you might suggest using softer organic cleansers. But, you again forgot to ask WHY? If you had, you might have discovered that the statues are far dirtier than expected. OK, now you’re finally learning and you now ask why and find out there is a problem with excessive bird scat. And, the use of simply metal spikes on the top of the statues solves the problem when all your previous ideas were but a waste of time and money.
The same is true for ALL social ills and all the effort and money we spend on social programs are more likely only worsening the problems than actually solving anything. For example, Dambisa Moyo’s new book “How the West Was Lost” (famous for her “Dead Aid” in which American relief efforts were shown to be the actual CAUSE of most ALL hunger and violence in Africa) argues the reason efforts to change the world normally fail is that real world egos, nepotism, and codependent relationships are never addressed by wholly shortsighted policy decisions (pretending a society run by monsters can’t be real and you can’t be blamed for anything). Management gurus (like Dr. Deming who had to move to Japan when not a single American would listen to him – which wholly explains the success of companies like Honda and Toyota) have been similarly saying for half a century that ALL organizations are but over-managed and under-led with bureaucratic, arrogant, and uncreative cultures specifically due to delusional quality programs actually designed to fail. The resulting poorly implemented strategies, ineffective mergers, and costly re-engineering can carry a large personal toll on each of us because of the immense impact work and governments have on our identities (per Dr. Bruce Hood). Racism is not really about malice buy just great ignorance. War and murder are likewise not about malice and again just great ignorance. Hunger is NOT a long-term problem for anyone in America. It is but another symptom of great ignorance. There is no good reason for racism, violence, and hunger except for our love for ignorance, lack of respect for critical thinking, and strong preference for but the easy and self-confirming. And, you dare say my reaction to such easily preventable evils is somehow over the top?!? Moreover, you make belittling references to me being your bud, being little, narrow-minded, and a buffoon and dare to suggest my tone is inappropriate for such social ills that could be swept away if not for our narcissistic self-love? Wow! You may be right or you may just be crazy.
The reference to “I’m not angry, I’m from Philly” (or New York) is in reference to children there Woofing, which is called Playing the Dozens (or Trash Talk) in New York. The game involves volleying taunts back and forth with another by kidding, snapping, teasing, toasting, or insulting others and their family (especially one’s mother) in a contest of wits and emotional strength. The first to get angry loses. The real lesson is that such stuff doesn’t really matter. I like to say I’m a male engineer from South Philly who was raised to believe WHAT someone said was more important than HOW. In fact, ALL subcultures have Dozens-like exchanges and such has been part of being considered literate ever since Greek orators deployed iambic mockery to deride speakers. For modern example, John Bright said about his UK political opponent, “He is a self-made man and worships his creator.” Abraham Lincoln said about an attorney, “He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.” Winston Churchill said about Clement Atlee, “A modest little person, with much to be modest about.” William Faulkner said about Ernest Hemingway, “He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary.” Finally, Ernest Hemingway said about William Faulkner “Poor Faulkner, does he really think big emotions come from big words?” Dozens likely refers to the ultimate humiliation of broken slaves incapable of hard labor being sold by the dozen. If that doesn’t make you emotional, I just don’t know if there’s any humanity left in you. But, if you think you can better promote the cause – please show me how. I would appreciate a demonstration of your greater success with changing people’s opinions concerning this critical subject. Ideal would be if you could get the author to publish an apology. Now, that would convince me you know what you’re talking about. I wish you luck – now, show me the money!
Your #2 is incorrect. Both my brother and father are air traffic controllers and they’ve been requiring a 4-year diploma since the early 80s at the very least. My dad was required to only have the 4-year degree. My brother had to have the 4-year degree, 2 year certification from one of the few schools in the U.S. that trains ATCs, and he’ll be going through another 18mos. of on the job training if/when he’s finally accepted by the FAA.
You are clearly an angry, bitter little man. You meet all the requirements to a T.
Good for you and your college degree. It doesn’t impress me at all (some of the dumbest people I know have Ivy League degrees — I wouldn’t hire these people to tie my shoes). But if it’s working out for you, great! Congratulations! Unfortunately, it’s clear that all of your so-called education hasn’t taught you that there is more than one way to skin a cat in life. Your narrow-mindedness is quite sad.
I find it interesting that I mentioned college puts many young adults into severe debt right out of the gate, and your only argument is: “But Harvard is free!”
Surely you’re not serious, Jim. You do realize that 99% of students do not attend Ivy League schools, right? (And thank god for that.) Not everybody is eligible for financial aid, grants, scholarships — and even when they are, it doesn’t always cover everything. You seem highly detached from reality. (FOX News fan?)
No, I didn’t ‘have’ to go in to business for myself. It was a choice I made early on, and let me tell you, it was the best thing I’ve ever done. I don’t regret it for a second. The very fact that you equate self-employment or small business ownership and being your own boss as ‘psychopathic’ speaks volumes about you and your sad little reality. (And yes, Jim, a responsible person should always be in control of their emotions. Didn’t they teach you that in kindergarten?)
You can clench your fists, grit your teeth, and repeat “But you have to get a college degree to be successful! And Harvard is free!” until you’re blue in the face — but it doesn’t change the reality that more and more people are catching on to what bullshit all of that really is.
But hey, look, whatever helps you sleep at night and feel better about yourself, bud.
I’m going to close our little dialogue now because your last paragraph exposed what I’m dealing with. Go ahead with the last word. I refuse to waste any more time on a hateful, close-minded ‘I’m always right’ buffoon such as yourself.
From the Daily Show Interview October 22, 2013:
Malcolm Gladwell: “When I interviewed very successful people, business leaders of the last 25 years, Charles Schwab, Clinton, and Obama, they explained their success starting with childhood hardships, the very worst things that can happen to a person.”
Jon Stewart: “Is there an inherent personality type that can translate these types of devastating blows into a positive outcome?”
Malcolm Gladwell: “I don’t know.”
Jon Stewart: “What do you mean you don’t know, you wrote the book?!?”
Malcolm Gladwell: “I didn’t consider it. My books are designed to raise more questions than they answer.”
When Glen Beck basically asked the same question, Malcolm Gladwell said: “That’s the great unanswerable question. I can’t provide the answer. I think books [can] only raise questions; people must answer them for themselves.”
Dear Ed: Here are some BOOKS to read (now, I know you likely don’t believe in books as they are too likely to contain opinions different from yours) if you want to learn about the personality type of which Jon Stewart asks : 1) The Psychopath Test: A Journey Through the Madness Industry in which author Jon Ronson uses Dr. Hare’s 20 question survey (the industry standard) to show what a high percentage of successful people are psychopaths, 2) Dr. Martha Stout’s The Sociopath Next Door in which Stout states American values and beliefs create the perfect breeding ground for psychopaths, whom she says have a kind of glow that makes them more charming, interesting, spontaneous, intense, and sexier, although they dislike sex and only use it to manipulate people, making them hard to identify and very seductive, or 3) just do an Amazon search for mobbing for a list of books on how psychopaths rule our world (Dr. Brodsky in 1976 and Dr. Leymann in 1984 both independently showed ALL of our stress is the consequence of deliberate groupthink “mobbings” directed by STJ psychopaths that overwhelm their target victims into powerless positions).
What type of person can get us to gleefully surrender our money, relationships, and happiness while basically worshipping them as heroes? Dr. Ted Bililies and Dr. William Bridges say they’re STJs on the Myers-Briggs personality test. Half of our presidents have been STJs. (Please Understand Me I and II by Drs. Keirsey and Bates). Why shouldn’t we put practical, tough-minded, commanding people in charge? “Striving for efficiency, [STJs] may produce a work force full of hostility, stress, and absenteeism.” (Dr. Otto Krueger, Type Talk at Work, 1991) “Creativity gets killed much more often than supported.” (Dr. Amabile, 1999) In fact, Dr. Gough showed (1981) there’s no one with less creativity.
In general, we don’t want to believe it because it would make our library of self-help books look pretty silly. But the one defining characteristic, dear Ed, is that a true psychopath would never consider themselves one and they get VERY angry (as you are here, using insults like “little man,” “dumbest,” and “narrow-mindedness” while suggesting a “responsible person” would never lose control and stoop so low) at any threat. This is due to the underlying, as Maslow called it, Mediocrity Personality Disorder. You yet again quoted no facts or references (something often done by someone with a degree). All you can do is your use of foul language, belittling comments, and holding your breath until you turn blue (or if more, no real loss).
Dr. W. Edwards Deming went to American businesses and tried to teach them about quality (in manufacturing, in management, and in thinking), but no one would listen (remind you of anyone). And so, he went to Japan and raised a great competitor to our businesses. One of his most famous quotes is
“Experience by itself teaches nothing… without theory, experience has no meaning. Without theory, one has no questions to ask. Hence, without theory, there is no learning.”
It has been a long time since I have seen a better example of what Dr. Deming was talking about than in your comments. Without the ability to learn, your educational choices were surely the best for you – but, that doesn’t mean they’re the best for everyone. I think you know how foolish you sound and that’s why you must always be on the attack, suggesting anyone who disagrees with you must be a “corporate slave” and “worthless.” Not every High School has a 100% graduation rate (or a 100% college graduation rate), but every HS could. A snotty reporter (who talked a lot like you do) once asked Dr. Escalante if he was going to get more kids into college than Hollywood High School (LA’s wealthiest HS). Jaime mumbled a bit and then admitted that he though money made a difference. But, he was wrong and he got more kids (from East LA where two thirds were living below the poverty level in one of America’s most violent neighborhoods) into Ivy colleges than Hollywood HS. Just because something is true (like you being stupid), doesn’t mean it has to be… but, whatever it takes to sleep – I hear that’s how you live your life, right?
I forgot to mention that one teacher’s (Escalante) 400 students each year (yes, 400) ALL went to college with scholarships 100% of the time (since there was no money in his neighborhood)… yes, 100%. Just because you say something Ed doesn’t mean it’s true (just the opposite in fact). When the IT bubble burst (when 100% of green cards were going to engineers and programmers), 60,000 green cards suddenly went unused as those jobs flew overseas (and those unused green cards were forever pulled by the U.S. government). Steve Jobs answered President Obama’s questioning about it with, “Those jobs are NEVER returning.” Instead of telling our children to give up on their futures and accept a job market that no longer needs college degrees, we should change the marketplace starting with improving (back to 1960’s levels) our K-12 educational system. A few years back, Bill Gates spoke at a Governor’s Conference and said, until American schools are redesigned, “we will keep limiting, even ruining, the lives of millions of Americans every year.” I know, dear Ed, as a self-proclaimed “responsible” person that sad statement does not affect you emotionally in any way. But, I can only hope that’s not true for everyone else who reads this. The number of students from China, India, and South Korea seeking American college degrees decline by a whopping 16% in just one year (2008). Yes, services, which are now more than half of our economy, usually do little process design, organization, management, or research and so have less of a requirement for a college degree… but, only a sick person would see that as a good thing either for their country or for their children.
P.S.S. And, the number of new entrants to the labor market that have completed higher education is increasing rapidly in EVERY foreign country (Canada is now #1 for college degrees at nearly 70% of their population; even South Korea has a greater number of college graduates than us) – except for the U.S. That DOES NOT make us the best.
P.S.S.S. What is the result? Fortune recently wrote that America recently lost about 2 million industrial jobs, mostly to China. More to the point, 80% of the world’s middle class growth is currently in Asian as the West’s middle class steadily declines. By 2025, more than 60% of the world’s middle class (as well as the college degrees) is projected to be in Asia. Good thing? No! Many of the New Economy’s jobs didn’t exist even 10 years ago (Many jobs didn’t exist 10 years ago (Sustainability Expert, App Developer, Chief Listening Officer, etc.). The exodus of jobs abroad is not to utilize cheap labor but a far more highly educated workforce. Foreign companies create more patents, China passed U.S. in direct foreign investment, tiny Japan has more engineers, and four countries (S. Korea, Sweden, Finland, and Israel), spend more of their GDP on R&D.
Today, 30% of college freshmen are put into remedial courses for material they should have learned in high school. Sadly, American children can look to the two kids next to them in class and know one will likely not graduate from High School while Japan in comparison has a 96% H.S. graduation rate and they leave H.S. with an education Americans only get after two years of college. As I said before, I expect the only response here will be an article on how a High School Diploma is no longer needed in our marketplace.
Sources: United Nations, World Bank, Surjit S. Bhalla, Second Among Equals: The Middle Class Kingdoms of India and China, May 2007, www.oxusinvestments.com, OECD Education at a Glance 2007, and Achieve, The Expectations Gap: A 50-State Review of High School Graduation Requirements, 2004.
Ed, if you are so successful why are you on this post? And to anyone saying a college degree is a waste of money shut you mouth. If you spend 20k on an education and then don’t pursue work in your field, you are a fool. I know 3 people who went to college and work for not much more than I. The lesson? They refused to go where the work is. Just because you have college doesn’t mean you will get employment. You have to be professional to do a professional job. The college people I know are not professional and I wouldn’t hire them. I am getting rather bored of so many people telling me a college education isn’t worth anything.Just because you failed to get your degree to pay off doesn’t mean you should go around telling everyone college is a waste of money.
I can’t believe oil field didn’t make the list. That’s crazy lol
The reason why poor farmers (and any poor, working class folks from yesterday and beyond) tend to think that college is important is simply because they never went to college and barely even finished HS, if they finished at all. Therefore, since they never got a college education and they are a poor laborer, they think that the lack of college education is the reason for their status.
While a college education is a good thing, it is only good for a small percentage. College today is not really valuable. It is very expensive and almost everyone attends, making the value of most degrees almost nothing. College is, for most people, merely a 4-year extension of HS, except you are no longer a minor and are free to be free and not go to class and drink and do drugs instead…all the while going to school on a loan and grants.
Most people benefit very little, if at all from their college degrees. All they really needed was some career training and a job. Most IT degrees, for instance are not needed as most IT skills can be learned by career training courses and certification test. It’s really all you need. That alone accounts for many jobs in the workforce today.
I’m not saying that college is useless. But college has merely become big business for the schools and the government. It’s the biggest scam going today.
The only people that actually gain anything from a college degree are those that actually have a career path in mind that requires a degree. These people then actually do well in school and actually pursue their career path. People who go to school for something like a business management degree are wasting money. You never learn what you really need to know in college for something like that. This knowledge only comes from starting at the bottom and working your way up to management. This is just one example, there are countless others.
All others should go to trade school. You will come out much less in debt and you will learn entry-level skills that will put you to work immediately and you can learn and get promoted as you get experience. In fact, most HS kids should be going to VoTech while in HS. Preparing most kids for college is a joke since most people are not fit for college. They only go to get the “college experience”…which is drinking, drugs, and having orgies.
BTW, I should add something here. While I believe that most HS kids need to go to Votech, that is assuming that votechs start offering training for things other than just truck driving, electrician, HVAC, etc. These things are all OK if you want to pursue them. But, for instance, we need to get a lot of the people going to college for things like dumb business degrees (marketing, mgmt, etc) and low-level IT course, and get them into career training to get them out in the field with practical knowledge they can grow on while making a living doing so.
We need to rethink in this country which jobs really need a degree and which don’t and then we need to start getting our vocational schools to focus on training folks for these non-college-requiring skills/jobs. Not everyone want to be a truck driver or a cosmetologist. Votech schools really need to start broadening their course/training offerings.
Chucke says “College today is not really valuable.”
I guess you need for me to repeat this … the reality is college graduates with bachelor’s degrees earn on average about $22,000 more per year than non-graduates. I gave my sources, where are yours? Oh yea, you’ve got some New Age “you said to yourself.”
Chucke says “It is very expensive”
Well, Harvard for one is basically free (my niece went for free). Most students receive financial aid despite the school providing NO academic or athletic scholarships. Worst case, they’re not likely to charge more than 10% of a parent’s income.
Chucke says “Most IT degrees, for instance are not needed as most IT skills can be learned by career training courses and certification test.”
Only for the $40k disappearing admin jobs (in which I would guess you have some personal experience). With that kind of mentality, it’s no wonder STEM jobs are the most often outsourced. People say home life is important for a child’s academic performance, but that’s only true when there are NO good teachers. Movies like Stand and Deliver, Marva Collins, Ron Clark Story, and the Knights of the Bronx were about 100% success rates in the poorest and most violent neighborhoods in America. So, we know we can succeed anytime we want to.
Which came first, people believing that a college degree didn’t matter or the fastest growing job in American being cashier? You shouldn’t need a college degree to figure it out. But then, I went to what was the #1 engineering school. Alas, this year’s freshman class has an average Math SAT score 120 points below my class. So perhaps, today’s college degrees simply don’t provide enough education for one to understand that roughly $22,000 more every year is a good thing.
“We need to rethink in this country which jobs really need a degree and which don’t and then…” we need to get all our kids a college degree (before robots take all the cashier and truck driver jobs – for the Army, this begins in 2014) and outsource the rest.
Calm down. You seem to be irrationally fired up about this whole issue. (Did you pay too much for college? Is your degree not paying off? You definitely sound bitter.)
Truth is, a college degree is becoming more and more obsolete. You can fight against this and argue until you’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t change the reality. Plenty of people, myself included, have gone into business for themselves without a college degree and have done very, very well. (Not being 80, 90, or 100k in debt out of the gate didn’t hurt matters.)
If you want to be a corporate slave who climbs the ladder, or have a career in law or medicine, then yes, a college degree is necessary. But if your goal is to make your own way in life and be independent of enriching others and playing by their rules, you should definitely think long and hard about whether the conventional ‘I must get a college degree to be successful’ wisdom is for you.
PS – Your ’22k more a year’ BS is worthless, because it doesn’t take into account the self-employed or small business owners. It’s only a comparative measure of workers within the same fields – financial corporations, healthcare, et al.
I would like to build a K-12 school where EVERY student skips 4 to 5 grades in test scores the first year they attend. And, I don’t just mean “gifted” students, but every student, even those who have been tested and labeled by experts as “Learning Disable Unable to Every Read or Write.” How realistic does this dream seem to you? Most people tell me since not everyone is built the same, that such a dream is completely unrealistic. Only problem is that this school was built by Marva Collins in South Chicago (you can rent the Marva Collins movie if you don’t believe me). 60 Minutes did a show about little Fifth Grader Erica in 1980 who was reading and testing at the Tenth Grade Level despite having an IQ of 75 and being unable to read the year before. 60 Minutes did a follow up piece when Erica graduated from the Univ. of Virginia Cum Laude with a 4.0 GPA. This did not surprise me. Even the fact that there was another dozen like students in her class who had similar success didn’t surprise me. In 2008, the South Chicago School District published a formal statement that the reason most children who did graduation from their school district had been recently identified as “Functional Illiterates” was that $11,300 a year was simply not enough to educate a child when Marva was still spending only $5,500 a year per child. Still no surprise. What finally surprised me was that in 2008, Marva (who had to open a private school because the public school teachers so abused and lied about her beating and cheating for her students) was forced to close her school as no one in America any longer wanted to attend. What do you say, is a K-12 education overrated (with so many careers not requiring a real one)?!? I bet you didn’t need one.
For example, let’s talk about the fasting growing profession in America, for which our educational system seems most geared to prepare our children for, which is cashier. Now, that’s a job for which one doesn’t need a college or a K-12 education. And, what is the highest paying and most available career? Luckily, it’s also one not requiring any real education (in which people work 25% less than average): K-12 teacher. Every American generation for the past 400 years was more literate than the previous, but since the Baby Boomers (the real problem), every generation is now instead less literate. Your cheap shots (calling me irrational) and your baseless complaints (calling my well supported facts BS simply because you don’t like them) are only but a sad reflection of the education common to Americans today. The sad conclusion to the Collins School shouldn’t be a surprise after remembering shortly after the movie Stand and Deliver came out in 1989 (based on the book America’s Greatest Teacher) that Dr. Jaime Escalante was forced out of education (needing to move to Bolivia to find a job) after receiving numerous death threats from other public teachers. Even though 26% of all Mexican-Americans passing Advanced Placement (AP) exams had been his students, not one “emotional” parent complained.
Well, you got what you deserved: a job market that no longer expects an education. The average Math SAT scores at top engineering schools are now 120 point below my class and getting an A is twice as easy at Harvard. But, what kind of sick parent would be happy with that for their children? Right, you.
Is my degree not paying off? In fact, I have had employment based solely on my resume listing an Ivy School. Of course, you’ve would never know what that is like – being unable to read and all (or else you would have caught Harvard being free and so not putting anyone into a 100k debt). I would guess that may be why you HAD to go into business for yourself. As they say, you can fool all the people some of the time and make a good profit while doing it – but, I wouldn’t brag about being such a psychopath (defined as someone who is always in control of their emotions, as you suggest). But, that’s me.
Numbers don’t lie……
In 1975 only 20% of graduating High School Seniors went on to college. Upon graduation from college, approx. 70% used that degree to secure employment. In 2010 approx. 70% of graduating High School Seniors at least attempt College. Upon graduation from college only 20% will use that degree. Now if we use 100,00 students as our control, in 1975 20,000 students would have gone to college and 14,000 would have secured jobs using their degree. In 2010 70,000 students would have gone on to college and still 14,000 would be using their degree. So the BIG BUSINESS of Higher Education is still putting out the same amount of employable college graduates’ but collects the cash for the much larger remainder of the student body who will never use their expensive Degree. Higher education is a very big business in this country. Look at all the contract service companies which operate for profit that are offering their services on campus. By the way they make so much money they are asked to return a sizable amount of that profit back to the institution.
Well…. almost everyone in the oilfield is out of work. I believe that is why it didn’t make the cut. It is/has always been, boom or bust…. unreliable for a secure source of income. I would not recommend it to anyone… it’s a very difficult life for the families of these workers. The workers are away from home for holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, special events, etc. It is a very dangerous occupation, and these workers are well known for their automobile accidents on the way home from an exhausting hitch. My hubby comes home tomorrow… he will have worked 18 hrs. during his last 24 hrs. on the rig, flown in the chopper over an hour, traveled by shuttle bus another hour or so to the nearest major airport, flown another hour to get to our nearest major airport, where I full well intend to meet him and drive him back home (2hours) so he can get some rest.
“Self education will make you a fortune.” – Jim Rohn
Is it really suprising that a seller of personal development materials would make such a baseless statement? First, this statement assumes there is no special expertise to teaching and that any fool can do it. Second, it assumes (contrary to modern neuroscience) that unquided self-reflection can do more than the placebo effect. Both assumptions are blantently false.
Within a single generation of the Pilgrams landing at Plymouth Rock, they passed the General Education Laws which fined any community that did not prepare EVERY child to attend Harvard. This raises the question why did those dirt poor famers four centuries ago value a college education more than the more technologically advanced nation in the world even AFTER the information age?!? Is it because we’re aiming to become LESS than dirt poor farmers (unemployed)? Might this be why the most outsourced jobs in America are Engineering (less than 4% of MIT engineering graduates can find work in their field) and Programming (Forbes identified software development as the #1 career in America with no future about 6 years ago)?
The most successful university of our time (UoP) is based on the reality that lifelong attandance to college is required to stay competitive in the work place with the AVERAGE age of a college student even at a for-profit college is 27 (having on average one child).
College graduates with a bachelor’s degree earn about $22,000 more per year than non-graduates (source: College Board/Trends, 2011). That’s nearly $1 million more income over a 45-year career. This is why a college degree is often called “The Million Dollar Gift.” Readers of this article should be warry of its message and consider the potential gains to its publishers. The potential financial advantage for Jim Rohn is obvious.
I make $26/hr and usually work 40+ hours a week. Anything over 40 hours is overtime and I get paid $39 for those hours. This brings us at around $50k a year. I don’t have any college degree of any kind. I’m also about to turn 19 soon. I’m not going to college, the job I have doesn’t care if I have a college degree or not. Just saying.
What job do you do out of curosity and how did you get started?
most of the jobs listed involve more schooling or training. Maybe not a university, but you are required to continue schooling and many of the trainings for those listed jobs are very expensive as well. I think the extra education is always better, but the premise seems to be telling kids they dont need more education.
most of the jobs listed involve more schooling or training. Maybe not a university, but you are required to continue schooling and many of the trainings for those listed jobs are very expensive as well. I think the extra education is always better, but the premise seems to be telling kids they dont need more education.
There’s a shorter route to getting a Nursing Associates Degree for someone not looking to study for four years. An Associate Degree in Nursing can be earned at a low-cost local community college and many people may qualify for some type of financial aid. This is a good alternative to medical coding. I suspect that with the implementation of Obamacare, medical coding will become redundant in a single-payer system and electronic medical records can automatically assign medical codes when the records are updated.
Salaries on a lot of these jobs are completely wrong. I am a current ATC specialist in NY and last year i made close to 130k in compensation. I would say about 70 percent of my co workers make well over 100k
Also the Elevator mechanics make well over 70 k not 61k.
Also the possibilty of a sales person making over 100k without a degree is highly unlikely unless promoted to manager which usually requires a degree
Great sales individuals can easily make over 100 K. I have colleagues selling complex IT and software at firms earning greater than 175 K
College should be a place to learn medical. I don’t see any use for it’s education, for I have self taught myself everything (Web development, game development, game theory, web & graphic design, etc.) I have 6 certificates, and I know more than a college grad friend of mine (He went for game development). I find the ones that self teach themselves to be the more “Motivative,” and love what they do other than a person going to college just to get a job, and make the money to support their college sweethearts. The only thing that I am missing is the socialization of college. I could care less about the social life. I make the money I need, and enough to sustain my self relied life.
Edit- should read 2-3 year master degree. Not 2-3 MLA’s that would be ludicrous 🙂
“Landscape Architect” on this list made me laugh and stop reading the rest of the article.
Landscape Architects need 4-5 year bachelor degrees at minimum and usually 2-3 masters degrees after that. Plus at least 2 years outside college working with a “Licensed” Landscape Architect Firm (if your lucky enough to get a job in one) BEFORE you can even qualify to take the Licencing Exam. Only THEN can you even call yourself a “Landscape Architect”. They work alongside engineers and architects and take classes like site engineering.
They don’t plant shrubs or cut grass. They work in professional firms and design studios. They create the site master plans for pretty much anything you can think of- college campuses, parks, housing developments, etc.
“Landscape Designer” or landscaper, design/build etc would be the title this author is looking for. Anyone can start their own company and do landscape planting and be but it helps to have an eye for good design and education in plants, hardscapes, soils, etc to be successful.
It’s mostly true that you can apply for, and be accepted w/o college for an air traffic controller and get OTJ for the position…..BUT I once read somewhere that FAA requires that if you’ve never done it before, you have to be under age 30.
In the United States you have to have at least an Associates degree of mortuary science to be a funeral director.
No degree to be a commercial pilot? That’s not realistic! Aside from military experience, most pilots have over 1000 hours of training they pay for – although some work as Flight Instructors to gain hours. Almost any reputable airline requires a 4 year degree in some field of study. And not to mention a $30-50k investment in training. Then you can look forward to something like 500-900 applicants for every available job that pays well…but if you like to fly and want to do it for a living, the rewards are incredible. Just don’t call it an entry level job. That’s like saying a surgeon is an entry level job. At best these jobs are highly sought after, highly competitive openings that only the cream of the aviation crop will ever land.
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Hotel sales and catering is lots of fun, work in nice hotel, meet lots of people, free food at most hotels, and advance fast to 80-100 thouand or more per year.
Jump in entry level at 40-60 thousand. Try ahla.com or www.aprinda.com for fast online certificates that can help.
As an entry level sales person you will sell blocks of guestrooms, meeting and banquet space, and services and ameniteis to event planners and travel managers. Each hotel employs 1-10 or more sales people………..there are always lots of jobs available
No degree required…………
Hotel sales and catering is lots of fun, work in nice hotel, meet lots of people, free food at most hotels, and advance fast to 80-100 thouand or more per year.
Jump in entry level at 40-60 thousand. Try ahla or APRINDA DOT COM for fast online certificates that can help.
As an entry level sales person you will sell blocks of guestrooms, meeting and banquet space, and services and ameniteis to event planners and travel managers. Each hotel employs 1-10 or more sales people………..there are always lots of jobs available
Nice list. Thanks for posting.
In my accounting field I’ve found a bachelors degree only gives you foundation courses and educational discipline and is not an end in itself. What I realize in the end is; learning goes on all the time and is actually necessary, as information and technology changes all the time.
The bottom line of what a number of employers look for is experience and while those with bachelors degrees are being looked for in first hires (in this recovering economy), exact experience that shows one can get going quickly with less training or has potential for future growth is what has been speaking for job winners. I say this after four years of only getting temp positions (while looking for a perm one) despite my BSA and over ten years of general accounting experience.
In trying to advance in my account career my frustration has been; while I hit a glass ceiling without my BSA (could only get accounting specialist positions), the degree has made me a monkey in the middle due to looking overqualified (they’re afraid I’ll run) and lacking exact experience (ex: full-charge bookkeeping, accountant). I tend to wonder if I would have done better getting an online bookkeeping certification and joining a bookkeeper network, but I don’t take to working for myself and have been struggling to find a permanent employer I can work for and grow with. Hopefully my new opportunity through a temp agency will lead to the perm opportunity – time and experience will tell…
One never knows where an opportunity may come up: In a small town, my niece started four years ago working in a hardware store stocking shelves, took a few needed college classes, and now manages the store operations! Her husband; who didn’t get enough work as an electrician, is now working there too, makes a steady income, and enjoys helping others.
I made it as a hotel sales manager. Earned 42K plus bonus entry level. Moved up through the ranks and hit 187K
Each hotel has 1 -10 or more sales people that sell blocks of guestrooms, meeting space, services and ameniteis to event planners.
Move up fast if you stick with it. All General Managers typically start at line level or mid managment and work their way up.
Try www.aprinda.com for an online certificate in just a few days.
Hospitality is a fun, sometimes glamorous job that pays well. Anyone can do it, you don’t need a college degree. There is no need to be unemployed….hotels alway have opening. Take anything, and work your way up.
People,life is not easy to deal with.Specially when you dont have an education.
I used to be one of the bunch,but not any more after i got my hands
into the IT field with only a certification.
Now i have more than enough.
You should check it out,,,,,, www.mycomputercareer.com
Don’t know how important degrees are these days. Australia is a good example. I don’t understand how someone with minimum qualifications can earn up to double with people who studied hard in college. Time to take up an apprenticeship?
While the job titles listed are good, the number figures are wrong. In reality, many people will get stuck making much less. It’s the “who you know, mentality which translates to “Who’s ass you kiss” or “Who’s back you stab” that gets you the higher pay. I have seen this in many places over many years. It’s why you see complete boneheads being supervisors and managers. The job force might as well be a board game. Money ruins more happiness than it provides.
So, so true Joe M. I agree with you on that. I work for a company that have some supervisors and managers that don’t know much of anything and they got the position because of who they knew and whose ass they kissed. Many of the workers below them teach them what they need to know in order they be able to do the job. Not only that workers under them who have degrees were turned down for the supervisor of management positions because they are not ass kissers or in with a certain crowd of people but could very well do a great job if only giving the opportunity. It’s ridiculous.
Joe, I have experienced this first-hand myself, so many times I can’t even count.
I’ll give you a little background first: I’m a 50 something, the youngest of six kids (so my parents couldn’t afford to pay for my college; though I did attend a community college for a few semesters to try to “get ahead” – it was the Catch 22 scenario that I’m sure a lot of people my age had, “when I had the money to go (by working my a** off all the time), I didn’t have the time to go to college” or either “when I had the time to go (in between jobs), I didn’t have the money because I went through all of my savings in between jobs, just to survive, instead of putting it into an education”.
Especially if you’re in a “good ‘ol boy” southern small town (in Florida) like I am. I have heard all those lame excuses, when being dismissed from my job for absolutely no good reason whatsoever! “You’re not a good fit”…”We just don’t think you’re going to work out for this position”…”We’re laying you off due to a lack of work, and I’m going to do the work myself ” (and then you find the SAME job you did, from the SAME employer in the newspaper the following week).
They won’t be honest and tell you the REAL reason why you’re being let go…i.e., “I just don’t like you”, “You’re too slow” (at doing detailed job costing, sales tracking and invoicing mainly, for small businesses), “We don’t have enough work for you right now”, etc., etc., etc.
I guess it’s fair play, because I’m not really honest with them and reply back to them: “I just don’t like you”- “I don’t like you either, in fact, I think you’re an a**hole”; “You’re too slow” – “You didn’t tell me at the job interview you’d rather have me do the job FAST and HALF-A**ED; “We don’t have enough work for you right now” – “My sister, mother, brother, cousin, niece, nephew, friend or neighbor needs a job right now”. Yes, I’ve heard every lame excuse in the book.
Even though you show up to work on time, do as you’re told, are never out sick, hardly ever take vacation (if you can even get through your probationary period long enough to earn vacation pay), and busting your a** proving that you’re worthy of being hired for the job; only to get some lame excuse in the end.
It all boils down to a few things like you said, “It’s not WHAT you know, it’s WHO you know”, who’s a** you’re willing to kiss on the way up (even if there isn’t one), or that they’re younger than you or half your age and they’re intimidated by you once you start working with them and show them what you know or what you can do, that they let you go (and lie to their boss) because one day you might take their job.
I just lost my job on Friday, I’m back in the job market again – for what – only to find LOW paying jobs that want you to have an associates or bachelors degree in whatever, just to do an accounting, administrative assistant, customer service or receptionist position – oh, and they make sure that they leave out of the ad that there’s NO overtime, NO benefits like sick time (yes, we expect you to come to work sick as a dog, so everyone else in the office will get pissed off at you) or holiday pay (oh, and on some holidays like 4th of July we’re closed for 2 days), oh and did I mention you only earn one week of vacation per year!
It make’s me want to give up looking for a job, but I’m not old enough to even think about collecting social security and it probably won’t even be there in 10 more years when I’m due to retire. I think I’ll just try to do something on my own to earn a living, at least that way I don’t have to put up with the B.S. that the employers in this town dish out.
I got a college degree after I was discharged from the military. I worked days and went to school at nights and it hasn’t done a thing for me, hangs on the wall a reminder I have loans to pay back. So I started my own garage door business and make more money than I would have ever made being a teacher. Yeah, it’s physical work but I always have jobs to do and I am my own boss.
I have been considering a career change into the heating and air conditioning field. Any idea what the average salary is for a HVA certified tech?
I am a personal trainer. At first I only made $1,500 per month. After deciding that I wanted to be the best in the world, and after a lot of hustle, I built a $30,000 per month training business, got interviewed my magazines and news stations, trained models and singers, and even trained celebrities.
I would say that no matter what field you are in, what you make has far more to do with your ability to deal with people. Some great books I would suggest are How To Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie, the 4-Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss, and Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers. These three books are the forgotten text books that even college won’t teach you.
Very nice! Kudos!
What is interesting is that many people who have advanced degrees are now working or looking at working in the jobs listed, which includes myself! That Masters degree that I have and the credits I have from Harvard University are doing me a lot of good right? ha ha Oh yeah throw my years in the Marine Corps as well. All totally worthless!
Note to the youngsters:
The smart man/woman applies for the jobs listed above and never goes into the military or college.
I think college is about more than just getting a degree too though… For sure, it makes a difference whether you will be completely in debt or not (in my case, I will graduate with very little debt, if any).
But I know that for me college has been quite a learning experience and an opportunity to grow as a person. I think it’s a good “transition” stage from child to adult. . .
An industry not mentioned where you can earn a decent salary is in Information Technology, where depending on the branch you don’t need a college/university degree. A lot of web designers are self taught and the potential earnings are large due to the majority of businesses now having an online presence both in terms of self promotion and affiliate marketing schemes.
Hi Phil, How do you get a high school student into a career of Information Technology to begin a career without college/university degree? Would you be so kind to list the branches in relation to IT that you won’t need degrees? Are the corporate businesses included in these branches you speak of?
I don’t think that college education should directly account for how much money you make. In this world its mostly who you know not what you know. I have come across this first hand many times.
So true Bill. It’s more based on who you know, NOT what you know!! It’s sad cause you have students graduating high school that don’t want to take loans out to go to college and want to work, make money, start a career but companies don’t want to hire them. My son is very smart with computers but doesn’t necessarily like school and wants to get into a IT career but how do you get in the door when you have no job experience. If he could get in the door with a good company that will pay for your education that would be great. Then I have a daughter who graduated from Drexel University in Pennsylvania and owes over $150,000 in school loans after getting her RN degree at Drexel University and has a RN position but can’t afford to have her own place and rides around in a used car that barely gets her from A to B because she has so much money going out in paying loans from colledge education. I mean what do I want my son to go that route, hell no. Yes college is overrated and if you can find a career that you can get paid well and are satisfied with then I say go for it because bottom line if you at least make enough money you can always go to school to pay for that education that should net you that higher income you desire.
Very interesting post. I like lists like this. Of all those I reckon landscape architect looks most interesting.
Funny thing is.. that’s the one you do need a degree for 😉
Master’s degree, actually…
Not sure how how I feel that Attorneys are not on the list. Being an attorney, I know the general public thinks they are all super wealthy but that is not the case. I know many lawyers who are not making any more money then someone with a corporate job. Then there are the articles coming out now that there are more law school grads then jobs. I feel sorry for those students, especially those straddled with 6 figure student loan debt.
I can’t agree with those that are saying that too many people are going to college or that certain folks shouldn’t go to college. It’s education. You can never have too much of that! If you can do it without putting yourself in the poor house to get there, DO EEEET!
One last thing. There’s a lot of guessing going on, like that in the comments left here. Don’t leave YOUR future up to opinion or guessing. Know the truth, the facts, and not some vague notions to commit to a strong plan of action to greater, even greatest success. There are many, many, many options outside the traditional bachelors degree. I worked most of my life making a very high salary in the computer field with NO COLLEGE DEGREE. And the jobs posted here that make “decent money” are more about propaganda for staying in college than not. The author of the article is a financial planner and not an education or career expert. You’ve really got to know how to think logically, rationally, clearly, and thoroughly to achieve at any level And most colleges don’t give you the 60-70% you need in skills, knowledge, and attitudes to achieve or that which many employers complain even college grads don’t have. So much to know, so many myths and sacred cows to kill.
Another point of concern is don’t look to existing success of what others have done. If a friend says his friend got a job with a such-and-such degree doing some type of work, you are NOT that individual. Just like investing in real estate is not a good investment across the board. It’s good if you’re intrinsically motivated, have the talent and ability and so many other intangibles. What’s good for one investor is not necessarily good for another investor. Same goes for college and work. Don’t do ANYTHING just because someone else says they are doing well or enjoy it. That can lead to a major waste of money, education, training and time. Half of the people in the US do not like their jobs. And within 5-10 yrs of graduation, 70% of graduates are no longer working in a field related to their major. The AFTER affects of college are never thought about or heard about. And this is where the greatest focus should be for those looking to obtain training / college and a career, not just a job. Don’t make mistakes that you’ll be sorry for for years even a lifetime to come. Too many have.
Unbeknownst to most, the US bachelors degree is very undervalued by most employers. Since most college grads from the US don’t have the communication, critical thinking, and complex reasoning skills needed for complex non-technical jobs, most employers look to those with graduate degrees or foreign sources. Also, most US colleges have been in decline or declining for the last 15 years or more. Where the US used to rank high, in recent rankings the US ranked 14th out of 14 nations in graduation rates. Another factor is that there are more people with bachelors than there are jobs that require them. And most are not getting degrees in fields where there is great demand for graduates. Things have changed considerably but nobodies talking because colleges and universities still want your money. And that’s another issue. In three years, from 08-11 total $ spent on loans has increased by 25% from $440 to $550 billion / yr. The cost of college has increased twice that of the rate of inflation. Better get your fact before you waste too much time and money on a degree that cost too much or won’t get you a job.
I do think that college is overrated, for some people. Too many people are going to college who shouldn’t, and end up with average jobs and enormous debts.
College teaches you life skills, how to survive without mommy and daddy. It is a valuable learning curve lol
This site seems to be dated with salaries. Elevator mechanics make about double the salary listed and air cOntrollers make between 100 – 140 k
IT is a great field for people without degrees with strong hands on technical skills. I have a friend thats a DBA and doing quite well so I’d definitely recommend the IT route and even information security can be an option as well. Often times the network is more important than a degree alone.
I think degrees are getting overrated considering the number of successful entrepreneurs who are college dropouts…
The problem with the traditional college degree is that it has become the new high school diploma. If you really want to separate yourself with education, a Master’s or Doctorate is a good investment in many cases.
Actually a Master’s degree can keep you from NOT getting job. I was talking to my Veterans liaison at a local job center and he told me that because I was putting my Master’s degree on my resume that was probably keeping employers from calling me for entry level management jobs that require a bachelor’s degree.
HR departments view you as a flight risk or they are afraid that you might take their job. I am never putting that I have a Master’s degree again unless employers ask me straight up.
Wait.. keep you from NOT getting a job? Doesn’t that mean..it helps you get a job?
But I agree. I am 21 and still working toward my bachelor degree, but I’ve heard this a lot from other people. Potential employers can view you as “overqualified” for a lower-level job. Kind of sad though…
That is so true. A friend of mine just got turned down for a job that he was so confident about getting. He has a master degree and was told that he was overqualified for the job as a environmental technician AKA a janitorial position. He has over 9 years in the janitorial field and has decided never again to put that on his resume.
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In general , college is worth the investment, but I guess for some there is success without it. For most people without a college degree, they don’t finnd success, so not having one and being successful is the exception, not the rule.
I completely agree. I think that articles like this are misleading. A lot of the jobs on here now require education in addition to experience. Times are changing.
I also think there are some exceptions to the rule of going to college = success. People like Bill Gates and Harvard drop-out Mark Zuckerberg are all wealthy and did not go to/finish college, but what about the 100s and 1000s of individuals who did not go or finish college? No one ever discusses what they’re doing. Also, there are some jobs that pay more to those who did not go to college than to college graduates, but there are by far more jobs that have higher salaries that college graduates are eligible for than those with just a high school diploma.
In other words, college is worth the investment. I know older people who did not go and are now either taking courses to go back to school even though they’re working, or they hate what they’re doing now and wish they had gone.
“People like Bill Gates are wealthy and did not go to/finish college”
Yes, but Bill first went to a High School that was toughter than Harvard. Education matters. The Pilgrams passed the General Education Laws in the mid 1600s to punish any community that failed to prepare every child for entering Harvard. Why did these dirt poor farmers have a higher appreciation for a college degree than we do centuries later? Well, for one reason, the schools were harder then. The freshman average Math SAT score at my old Engineering school is 120 points below my class 35 years ago. And, even a 1862 Reader is considered too hard for today’s kids. And so, the most outsourced jobs are ones that require an education with cashier the fastest growing remaining profession.
American children can look to the two kids next to them in class and know one will likely not graduate from High School – key to a living wage. The Army says 3 out of 4 18-25 year old can’t join the military for either failing to graduate High School, having a felony conviction, or simply being too fat. There have been schools in Harlem, East LA, and South Chicago with 100% graduation rates (and more Ivy School alumni than Hollywood High) – so why don’t we require such success from every school?!?
Until American schools are redesigned, declared Bill Gates at a recent summit of the nation’s governors, “We will keep limiting, even ruining, the lives of millions of Americans every year.” Intel and Cisco CEOs later added that America’s lackluster school would be forcing them to look overseas for talent. The number of students from China, India, and South Korea seeking U.S. degrees declined by 16% in 2008 alone.
“It is possible to enter an urban school in China or India or Brazil and immediately recognize a way of organizing education that has become completely taken for granted in the West. Students sit passively in separate classrooms. Everything is coordinated by a predetermined plan, with bells and whistles and rules to keep things moving like one giant assembly line throughout each hour, day, and year.” Page 7 of Presence: Human Purpose, 2004 by Dr. Senge, Scharmer, Jaworski, and Flowers (which Harvard Review described as the most important text in 75 years).
“People still believe in the tradition of dedicated, self-sacrificing school teachers. They don’t know how the profession has changed… What was once the poor man’s burden has become everyone’s.” – Marva Collins (you can stream The Marva Collins movie from Netflix)
A degree will help get your foot in the door.
You can get in without a degree, but you may need to do some hard knocking.
In today’s current financial climate it makes sense to get experience in a job rather than go to college. Spend 3 years in further education or use that time to earn money and progess in your job.
I think it all depends on your end goal. If you are going to work in a very specific niche, in a white collar profession, then yes….ongoing education is probably the way to go. However, I know too many small business owners who retired with more money than any of these college graduates at the end of the game because they worked hard building a business over 30 years. I could probably argue either way.
college degree should not be related to the job compensation. After a while, compensation is purely based on your ability to sell yourself and perform your duties. Lot of successful business people don’t have any degree.
college gives you a good relationship network
but won’t teach you how to be an entrepreneur i guess
Security Guard jobs are the highest paid and especially Law Enforcement Agents are highest paid and one can Join Police department and get their training. This indeed is a great opportunity to server the community
It does cost a lot to go to University and if I was thinking about going now then I would probably choose not to and get into a training program of some sort.
That said I did grow-up a lot at University and am happy that I went.
I think college does more for you simply than the degree. It should be considered to offer much more than just a piece of paper.
Air Traffic Controller is very stressful job!
Becoming an EMT-basic can also be done without a college degree. It’s about 120-150 hours worth of training.
You can try affiliate program as well. It’s a nice paying job if you know how to do it properly.
I know a lot freelance photographer myself, and it is true that if you have contacts, your photos can sell like hotcakes.
Knowing people is always good 🙂
Location is also key though!
In a small town, you can take bad pictures and still make money at it… In a city though, you need to be pretty good because there’s a lot more competition, and people are not willing to pay for mediocrity. 😛
And if you’re great AND live in a small town… you probably won’t make what you would like/think you deserve, BUT you will get good business.:)
It was a surprise to me what some of these jobs were. I would have thought more sales types of jobs would have made the top 12. I know some tire salesmen that make boo koo $$$
I myself am a self taught I.T. Administrator and Application/Database Developer who earned several certifications in the field, spent many years working with upper management reading books that target my challenges and putting things into practice while learning new techniques that have been very successful and have built a portfolio over time, which college heads were not able to do. In our try before you hire session, at my company we ended up getting rid of a few college grads because their knowledge was so far behind and seem to be spoiled. I think experience and character overrides College by far, remember in college courses you just read a little try to memorize till test time pick and choose teachers who most of time has spent little time, if any, in the field they are teaching. What is the difference between this and jumping on Google and reading the latest information about a subject, then putting it into practice. People that hire based on degrees are just selfishly looking out for themselves, because perhaps they have a degree, and end up hurting themselves and their company by passing up someone with more knowledge, certifications, character and experience, remember results is why you hire, not because you might have read something in a outdated textbook. That being said, I am working on a degree although as I take the classes it is confirming what I feel to be true.
I so agree with you, i taught myself how to repair computers and other electronics, but since i dont have the degree no one wants to give me a shot that sucks but, without that lovely paper companies wont or do not want to take a chance on you. not fair. 🙁
Rosa, I respect that you taught yourself how to do some things. I did that as well. I worked for more than a decade at jobs that went nowhere. At my last job, where I spent eight years, I was promoted several times and learned a lot. I taught myself how to do things. But at the same time, in the “working world,” it’s hard to keep up unless you’re educated. Along with this, I worked full-time, attended school full-time, and cared for my husband who ended up dying. However, when you say it’s not fair for companies to mainly look at people who have degrees, I disagree. I worked my tail off working and going to school. I spent many late nights studying, writing papers, etc until one or two in the morning. I happen to be an English and History major. I know that people scoff at us English majors, BUT this is a skill I can use anywhere. Because all the responsibilities I dealt with, I had to stay extra focused and work extra hard. It has taken me eight years. This is not true of most spoiled, twentysomething college students whose parents pay for their education. I ended up remarrying and having two kids.
Through all this, I learned how to write creatively and on a professional level. I see so many grammar mistakes in the general public, and while I understand that not everyone knows the standard practices of professional writing, these types of mistakes have drifted over into the professional world. This is why I hope that I can use my training and education to improve businesses. The so-called “business” writing that I see is terrible–“your” for “you’re” and things like that. People don’t know how to be professional anymore.
People can think what they want about people like me, but the truth is, my education will pay off in the long run. Computers, phones, and other technological devices can correct things and run “apps,” but human thoughts will never be replaced.
Thing is, I’ve worked long and hard through tragedy. I’m not about to have anyone make fun of me for it. I deserve this degree. I have sacrificed a lot for it.
I am in no way disrespecting anyone who doesn’t have a college degree. My parents didn’t, and my dad worked extremely hard as did my mom, but these days it’s hard to find a decent job without a degree. This job list? Where are these jobs? I never see any of these advertised. Oh, and it’s especially hard for a woman to find a job.
College students do not just read outdated book. Outdated books are used to learn about foundations of each certification, but we spend a LOT of money for new editions of books. At my university they use new books for each course after at least 2 to 3 years.
You MUST be licensed to call yourself a landscape architect (except for one, small, state). To get licensed without a professional degree from an accredited institution you have to have a licensed practitioner sign off on at least 6 years of work under their license and pass the arduous licensure exams (which are intended to be impossible for people who don’t have a degree in the field). Most people graduate with a 5-year bachelors of landscape architecture or a MLA + 2 years of work experience and then pass the exams. It is a true profession like physician, CPA, architect, or attorney.
That is just plain ridiculous and a scam.College for landscaping.LOL
Anyone who would pay thousands of dollars to get a useless piece of paper deserves to be in debt for life.
Do you realize what a landscape architect does compared to a landscape designer? They don’t just install plants or work in your backyard. They are stewards of the environment and connect the environment to people among many other things. There are things in this profession, as there are in many others, that don’t require school leaning, but there are also many analytical skills and design techniques that do. Before disregarding someone’s hard work and education you might want to take some time actually learn what it is that you are talking about instead of overgeneralizing.
@ Some Guy Do you realize what the difference is between a Chartered Financial Analyst and a Certified Financial Planner?
The intent of the post was to not give a detailed synopsis of the various careers just a “general” overview – a suggestion of what potential careers exist out there that don’t require a college degree.
Instead of complaining that the post didn’t meet your standards, why not give a more helpful breakdown so that others can benefit?
I’m 99.9% sure he was referring to ELM’s derogatory (and completely uninformed) comment.
If someone had similarly said that people who go to school to be a Certified Financial Planner are stupid for doing so, you may have felt the same way. .
@ Some Guy
Sorry about that! I was viewing my comments from the backend of my blog and didn’t realize who you were responding to. My bad!!
If the intent was to give a general overview of professions that do not require a degree, then Landscape Architect should be removed from the list. I think you have fallen for a common pitfall, Landscape Architects and Landscape Designers are not the same thing. Landscape Architects do require A degree and a licensure test to be a landscape architect, some states allow for a non-degreed individual to become licensed, but the number of people in the US without a degree that are LAs are very small. The vast majority of LAs work behind computer terminals and rarely get dirty. Landscape Architects design Master planned communities, Theme parks, Commercial Centers, Apartments Communities, Senior Care Facilities. Ect. Most Landscape Architects are more closely related to Civil Engineers than to Landscape Design. In my personal experience the landscape component of the job is typically less than 10%. Landscape designers will rarely make the average of $66,000 that you state unless they have a full installation crew. Landscape Architects with 10+ years of experience should be making in the $80,000 – $115,000 range
I agree with you, but you have to admit even when some people get their degrees, it does not mean they know what they are doing. It is sad but true.
I still believe in collage though, I am struggling trying to get my degree, hopefully i will graduate soon. 🙂
You believe in college not collage.
I agree. It is truly stupid to go to college for many jobs. I have a Bachelor degree. What a waste of my time and money to get it. I have lied on my resume many times just to get various jobs to try out. I did well at every one, even though i had none of the experience and/or education they required. I basically proved that a person can learn how to do any job with some desire and effort. Most jobs hardly need years of “learning”. Imagine all the time you waste learning information that is pointless and easily forgotten. Been there done that.
Colleges should be burned to the ground so people can actually get a job instead of getting a large bill.